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paulselhi

Anyone Got A Good Ar3 Object Animation Render ?

58 posts in this topic

that cloth animation is pretty good isnt it? its true about the other renderers, i couldnt care less if final render flickers or not, we know with vray you can get rid of the flicker, so should just be concentrating on ar3

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Read my post again. Absolutely no comparison being made between render engines, just adding a little dimension to your comments on the no show of FR. I'll keep it to myself in future.

Cheers

Karl

Edited by Lesia44

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that cloth animation is pretty good isnt it?

But for 30 hours ??!! I am doing some more tests to see what is the major hit on render times, i suspect oversampling may have a large impact, and maybe shadows?

Thing is i wonder why MAXON used buckets then reverted to scan lines, perhaps they had no choice, but it seems that on a render farm only 1 machine can work on the gi calc ( ok they all work on it independantly but only the one calculated first gets used so in effect it is only 1 machine being used) this gets me to thinking that for large render farms you should place the emphasis on the final render and not on the gi pre calc, so perhaps for render farms a brute force method would be a better option

Edited by paulselhi

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yeah i guess 30 hours is quite insane, can i try the scene on my 8 core? im trying to set up a quick test now with a few bits so il give that a go, only thing is everytime we see examples they are always done on octo macs and to be honest the difference in render times is unreal, i have a dual 2.4 macbook pro and while it seems fine for some things there is a massive difference in render speeds, as there would be,

i just get the impression that some people, not saying you are expecting AR3 to be lightining fast on fairly low spec machines, and as is the case with any renderer you want fast times then an an important factor is to have a strong machine to do it on, and at the end of the day rendering with transparency high aa settings area shadows etc etc is never going to give people the 30 second a frame time some people seem to be expecting, (im not meaning 30 seconds literally)

im not slagging off anyone with this, this is just what i think, and id like to just see some decent animations done with AR3, if we can crack some out and help eachother along the way then all the better,

have to say, 'a cached cloth scene 1 spot with soft shadows a sky object with a lumi mat and a sphere also with a lumi mat' shouldnt in theory be that slow, depending on the settings you have used to bring out the cloth,

"this gets me to thinking that for large render farms you should place the emphasis on the final render and not on the gi pre calc, so perhaps for render farms a brute force method would be a better option" this kind of makes sense to me but im not an a expert at all

il post the results i get with my scene aswell, will try and get it done today, got loads on but will leave it going in the background and see what happens with it..

Edited by colibert

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OK bear with me i am running a much faster test and when i post it i will also pots the scene with the cloth cache

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OK here is a new render at 2 hours 15 m, ( using a cached cloth) this time i set gi to medium and the oversampling to weak and removed the light, i also raised the floor so the gi can be seen better

http://www.black-and-white-to-color.com/stuff/gicloth2.mov

There is some good gi occlusion on the folds of the cloth and the ground picks up the gi quite well. Obviously the lack of shadows does loose a lot of fold detail. Note the odd dark areas on the near cloth edge seen on the upswings.

I now have to see what caused the massive drop in render times, the light ? the oversampling or the gi quality settings ?

Here are the files the original 30 hours and the new 2 hours + the cache file which will have to be loaded as the paths have changed

http://www.black-and-white-to-color.com/stuff/gicloth.rar

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It's the shadows.

Cheers

Karl

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cool, will download it in a bit, thanks

im just rendering one with 10 animated spline wrapped boxes, a transparent ring growing, a growing torus with luminance on it 2 area lights with area shadows, on blue,

and a moving camera, its currently done ten update passes in 9 minutes and is about to start rendering, may be asking for trouble with this lot! but il post the first example, doubt its goings to be great but il post it then try and improve on it, its rendering now at 4 seconds a frame at the moment, and has refelction on the floor with dispersion!

now im scared :)

thats last cloth one looks good to me,

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right, made from scratch and rendered in under 40 mins,

some points, its small! and fast! and i missed a couple of frames out at the end,

the floor at the start is blotchy because the floor has no thickness and is showing the stuff underneath it, as it would, plus everything is set on 0 as is the floor so geometrey right on top of geometrey, i will fix that

AA is only set to 1x1 and 2x2,

right in the background, the dark area of the floor has movement in it, there is an hdri image in it and its reflecting on the floor, il turn that off also.

like i said, first test so its not going to be perfect,

i will fix those points and render out a bigger one and slow it down.

as ive said im not an expert on anything to do with animation so let me know your thoughts on it and i will take them on board and see what happens, be good for me to learn some more as im doing alot more animation stuff now

cheers

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and its really pixelated viewing on here, isnt on my screen, weird!?

Edited by colibert

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stoob, d/l the demo and have a go

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I rendered the same scene with a spot and soft shadows it rendered at about 3 hours, not exactly sure as i went and got legless down the pub and when i came back ( at 2am !!) i could barely see the screen let alone read the render times !!

I will do some still tests to see what has the bigger impact on render times, high gi settings or high oversampling

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I'm with paulselhi on this one I think.

From a production point of view, AR3 GI object animation is pretty poor. (and SLOOOOOOOOOOW...)

I've had 16 cores working on a prepass of a relatively simple 980 frame animation for the last 10 hours.

It's only produced up to frame 60 of pass 3 of 14!

sad.gif

I really think MAXON need to rethink how they market this new update. As these render times certainly are not at "breathtaking speed", and the quality/speed ratio we are getting from recent tests is pretty unacceptable.

Fair enough if you have a load of animated primitives or just camera animation, but as soon as you try for anything more slightly more complicated, at a decent resolution, the prepass times are shocking! Optimising the GI settings to get the prepass times to a more acceptable scale produces renders that are passable for testing, but certainly not broadcast quality.

Net Render also does nothing to ease this woe. Within their manual MAXON state that '...QMC renderings (QMC GI mode) can be done unprobelmatically. No cache files are used." (great spelling by the way)

But in our testing we found that NR split the prepass between the different nodes, but then only seems to use the data from one, which corrupts the frames rendered on the other nodes. The only way we've got this to work was across NR, was to let one node handle the prepass then distribute, but surely that is defeating the point of Net Rendering....

So in answer to the original post... definitely no, we haven't been able to get an acceptable object animation out of AR3.... yet! And that's pretty disappointing. I'd say if you're a hobbyist, go for it. But I wouldn't recommend this to anybody on a production level unless they've got access to ILM's render farm at the moment. Hopefully these are things that can be improved, but for the moment, anybody with deadlines should avoid.

(This post is an opinion based on objective observation and not intended as being part of a tit/tat post war, we are pro-users with experience and not just randomly complaining about a product that has served us well for many years. There seems to be many sensitive/protective people about who don't like to see this product spoken ill of, but if concerns aren't raised, and defects pointed out how can things ever progress....)

my two pence :)

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just to clear something up for MAXON.

i havent seen anywhere MAXON saying Gi renders will be faster.

they say render is fast (which it is) -normal rendering - (with lights)

Gi is better quality then previous version but they never say Gi is faster.

i suggest you do some test without Gi if its the speed your testing

other wise your just wasting your time trying to get better Gi time then other c4d version

Edited by dataflow

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i suggest you do some test without Gi if its the speed your testing

other wise your just wasting your time trying to get better Gi time then other c4d version

Like I said, I'm not getting into a tit/tat post arguments. We purchased direct from our MAXON rep in the UK who catagorically stated that the new engine was not only 'faster' but could now handle object animation.

Now all of a sudden MAXON have never stated that GI rendering is any faster than the old version?

:)

These quotes from MAXON's website... as well as the demonstration videos claiming the speed ups on the new GI system...

"CINEMA 4D R11 highlights include a non-linear animation system, new global illumination render engine and dramatically improved render speed. "

"AR3 provides the flexibility to get the realism you need without spending hours tweaking settings or days waiting for frames to finish."

So not only are we all deaf and blind but our MAXON rep knows nothing about the product that he's selling.

Unlikely, I think

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that sentence is to different statements.

maybe they should have seperated them so people dont confuse the 2

statement 1 : new global illumination render engine

statement 2 : and dramatically improved render speed.

render speeds are faster (not for GI)

and im not saying that A3 is perfect and bug free (because its not)

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As i mentioned earlier, since gi prepass only occurs on one machine effectively.. the first one that finishes calculation provides the solution for the farm. It would seem logical that for farm work it would be better to use a brute force approach with no precalc thus having all the nodes kicking off at once. Of course this would have to be worked out considering the time taken to precalcand the number of nodes available for render. But a precalc that takes several days maybe be waisting time when you could perhaps get a better and faster BF render with enough nodes

Take a hard render example where each frame in BF takes 1 hour to render. On a 1000 frame render with 20 nodes in a farm that would have a finished render in 3000 mins

A 3 day prepass ( not unreasonable for high settings) is 4300 mins + the final rendering of each frame

Of course if you happen to have a 32 core machine that could be used for the prepass plus a 100 node render farm you are a happy bunny.. and probably using Houdini !!!

Edited by paulselhi

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To try and get a solution to this, we've tried splitting the current scene into 5 cuts (which was a pain as it's one continuous shot) The files were then saved incrementally with the frame ranges adjusted for each cut (0-305, 306-481, etc.) and farmed each file to the nodes. So that each one is pre-passing a section thus cutting the time by five.

We were hoping to combine the GI results into a master folder and use that as the master solution for the final Net render. But instead of creating a solution for each frame relative to it's frame number... i.e. frames 0-300 would have a solution file 'frame(0-300).gi'... cinema creates a file with a frame number relative to the current render. So each illum folder for each of the renders has results that are named incrementally 'frame(0-???).gi' so there's no hope of combining the results for one final NR solution. Which is a bummer to say the least.

sad.gif

Each node is just gonna have to chunk though the pre-pass and render each cut all on it's lonesome, with After Effects coming to the rescue by the looks of it...

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This is I guess would be AR1. I put this simple scene together for testing. A sphere rolling around on a plane with a stationary object.

post-3995-1222541529_thumb.jpg

rad10.mov

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This is I guess would be AR1. I put this simple scene together for testing. A sphere rolling around on a plane with a stationary object.

if your going to test a renderer you really need all different types of materials in scene (i know your not testing materials but they have a big effect on animation render quality)

its not that hard to get a white material scene to look good

Edited by dataflow

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Yea, your right Dataflow. Just a basic where do I start kinda settings to use for AR. To much one way and you get long renfer times, not enough and you get flckering. I did notice ( at least with my version) I have to flush the illumnation casche. And the materials are the basic materials with a little reflection.

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The Fallen:

What is written on the MAXON website:

"CINEMA 4D R11 highlights include a non-linear animation system, new global illumination render engine and dramatically

improved render speed. "

What you read:

"CINEMA 4D R11 highlights include a non-linear animation system, new global illumination render engine with dramatically

improved render speed. "

"AR3 provides the flexibility to get the realism you need without spending hours tweaking settings or days waiting for frames to finish."

This sentence is mainly about ease of use and secondly about the now practicaly linear calculation time for frames in GI animations, instead of the sometimes exponentialy increasing time with 10.5 GI.

MAXON is extremely cautious about what is claimed and the above sentences don't offer any interpretations like the ones you read into them.

In fact MAXON marketing has often been accused by customers to not be agressive enough ;)

Cheers

Bjorn

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That first sentence is ambiguous to say the least.

Cheers

Karl

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This page here about render speeds on MAXON's site makes interesting reading.

What I'm finding is rendering without GI is noticeably quicker in R11 as confirmed by the speed tests done by MAXON. For me rendering with GI in R11 is usually slower but the result is a lot better and there is a lot less tweaking / test renders required. For still images this is great and if the render takes another 5 minutes because of the new GI then so be it. I'm still finding animation rendering with GI still too slow to be of much use. It's doable but you have to leave your machine rendering overnight or all day while you're out out work.

3DKiwi

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The caching allows you make minor changes e.g. change the colours of your materials and rerender without the need to recalculate the GI.

3DKiwi

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