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R13, R14 Or Just Get Vray?

56 posts in this topic

#1   Posted

I am using R12 studio and have been attempting photo real arch-viz. Most people use 3ds max and vray for this type of work. As there is a vray plugin for many 3d programs, including Sketchup, I figure as long as I can create the geometry that is required, vray will help (to a greater or lesser extent) on providing that photo realism I desire. Don't get me wrong, I know that it takes a lot of knowledge and work to make materials and images photo realistic. There is no "make it look real" button ;)

However, my main question is, is it better to spend the money on vray and get all the additional functionality out of this rendering plugin, or spend about the same money on an upgrade to R14 studio?

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#2   Posted

If it's a straight choice between one or the other, then personally I'd upgrade to R14. I think the new features in R13 and R14 outweigh the benefits of Vray plus R12. Unless you are doing arch viz professionally and really need - and know how to make use of - the advantages of Vray over the native renderer, then I think you'd get more from the latest version of Cinema. Certainly you'd get more to play with anyway.

Just my opinion, of course.

Steve

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#3   Posted

If you buy Vray now, then you're looking at having to pay again for the upcoming update to VrayForC4D. It's not likely to happen until the end of this year or early into next year, but just to keep in mind.

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#4   Posted

Hard to answer... not knowing how proficient you are with the inbuilt renderer (and you, most likely, not having tested the physical renderer). R14 has new features that are more than useful for architects. That alone would be reason enough to buy into it + all the other new features you´d obtain in a 2 version jump. VRay for C4D is not developed/maintained by Chaosgroup, and you will not be able to use it with Sketchup or 3DS Max. It´s closely integrated into C4D and does not come as a stand alone renderer like for example Maxwell Studio, that "only" requires (bridge-) plugins to work with different 3D & 2D applications.

This doesn´t answer your question or make your decision any easier, but lastly it is up to you to define the priorities of, and in, your workflow. My vote would go to R14...

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#5   Posted

Personally speaking, I just can't get the same results out of the physical renderer that I can out of vRay. That being said, I have seen some really nice stuff done with the Physical renderer. (I probably just need to spend more time with it).

If Archvis is what you make money doing, I'd say go with vRay. There are a ton of new features to be had in R13-R14, but they may not be something you'd necessarily use to make money. vRay is very deep, but the community (especially Stefan!) is really helpful.

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#6   Posted

The additional functionality you would get with R14 far outweighs any performance gains you would realize with VRayForC4D and R12. The only thing you would lose by upgrading to R14 is the additional time it might take to render. If you choose VRay over the upgrade you lose some very important and useful functions.

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#7   Posted

If your main focus is/will be achviz, I don't think R14 has that much to offer. Vray, on the other hand, does.

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#8   Posted

I understand that Vray for C4D's application is different than for the other apps, as it is more integrated into C4D than the others are - actually my preference. Also, it is not from Chaos Group, the makers of the "other" vray?

I have read and experienced that C4D's materials/editor is not as good as vray's BRDF materials and calculations. It lacks the options and flexibility.

According to above comments, it's native renderer is slower than vray.

And what about the lack of vray proxies? I know you can create a proxy switch with Xpresso, but it is not quite the same. I have used carbon scatter.

The above comments have suggested that I will lose out on important functionality. What functionality in particular would I lose out on if I go for Vray instead of the R14 update? (please consider an arch-viz application)?

I have to admit that I don't have a tonne of experience with the native renderer. However, after following many, many tutorials, suggestions and other forums for material and render settings over the past 2.5 years, I cannot get the look I desire. Others have said that you really have to fuss with the native renderer and materials to get "photo real" quality out of C4D. I also know that this probably has to do with the fact that I am using R12. However, if Vray handles this problem, then why go to R14?

I finally have to admit that I usually do most of the initial modeling in Sketchup (as it is much faster) and then export to an *.obj file to be opened up and "cleaned-up" in C4D. I add extra or intricate details and any organic forms that would be difficult or impossible to do in Sketchup (not so many now with the help of ruby scripts) in C4D. BTW, has the import of Sketchup files become better in the R13 or R14 version? (It seems almost painless in 3ds max.) I have yet to find an easy method of taking projects from Sketchup to C4D.

Please do not get the impression that I dislike C4D and somehow wish it was like 3DS max, but the reality is that the vast majority of people in arch-viz us the 3DS Max/Vray combo. I also have to consider this when seeking employment, as some experience with vray - even if it is in a different platform - is better than none.

@Rezca - according to the site, if I buy vray now, I get all updates to 1.5. Currently they are at 1.2.6 and awaiting 1.3? Is this accurate?

Thanks to the above for your input and advice,

Lyle

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#9   Posted

If you do not upgrade to R14 now the cost to upgrade next year and the next will get prohibitively expensive. If you look throught the renders produced by C4D they are every bit as good as VRay if the person knows what they are doing. VRay also has a learning curve, even more so than C4D, so don't expect results overnight, it may take six months or a year of experience to come up to speed. VRayForC4D is only a wrapper around the VRay core engine which runs in the background and is handed the project file then outputs the resulting render, so you are getting the same engine only not quite as up to date as the standalone version. The future of SketchUp is unclear as Google has sold the product, I have seen other software apps sold only to die a slow death or be set on the self because the company only wanted the core technology, therefore you cannot count on it going forware in a professional context.

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#10   Posted

If you do not upgrade to R14 now the cost to upgrade next year and the next will get prohibitively expensive.

My closest distributor is currently asking over $1000 CDN for the R13 upgrade. Just slightly more that Vray.

If you look throught the renders produced by C4D they are every bit as good as VRay if the person knows what they are doing.

Sorry, but I just don't see it in regards to archviz. There are some good ones though. I do agree that in all of the realms of CG you have to put in your time and know what you are doing to get good results. There are no flukes.

The future of SketchUp is unclear as Google has sold the product

Gotta disagree with you on this one also. Trimble took over the product and the whole team! Many times a new company means a fresh start and new outlook. I would have to say that it was Google that was letting the product go stale. They have their fingers in too many pies to focus on what Sketchup can and should be. Making it 64 bit and implementing some of the advanced functionality created by ruby scripts would make it a modeling app that would give others a serious run for their money. With all the volatility going on in the world - especially in the EU, the birthplace of C4D - you can't count on anything going forward in a professional context. Volatility is the new norm.

But I digress, I think I have made up my mind. Spending a bit less money to get the realism and at the same time the experience with the app used in my industry of choice makes more sense to me. Also, I can take away all of the knowledge that is out there on the net for Vray regardless of what app it is running with, and there is a tonne of info out there. I am hard pressed to find a fraction of the material for C4D.

Thanks though for you input and reading my ramblings.

Lyle

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#11   Posted (edited)

My closest distributor is currently asking over $1000 CDN for the R13 upgrade. Just slightly more that Vray

That's 1000 to go from R12 to R14, you are not going to see a deal like that again, it's even cheaper through Safe Harbor or Ebay. You can buy a used copy of VRay for about $750, people are selling them all the time. My point is that you are passing up an opportunity for C4D that you probably won't see again nearly that cheap.

Sorry, but I just don't see it in regards to archviz. There are some good ones though. I do agree that in all of the realms of CG you have to put in your time and know what you are doing to get good results. There are no flukes.

A lot of pros would disagree with you again on that point.

Gotta disagree with you on this one also. Trimble took over the product and the whole team! Many times a new company means a fresh start and new outlook. I would have to say that it was Google that was letting the product go stale. They have their fingers in too many pies to focus on what Sketchup can and should be. Making it 64 bit and implementing some of the advanced functionality created by ruby scripts would make it a modeling app that would give others a serious run for their money. With all the volatility going on in the world - especially in the EU, the birthplace of C4D - you can't count on anything going forward in a professional context. Volatility is the new norm.

Google doesn't ditch money making products that have a future.

Edited by mmVRay

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#12   Posted

It's actually to go from R12 to R13. No ideal about R14. I was actually able to get R12 visualize and go to studio for a total price of $3000. Which is a major discount over the $4000 list for studio back in 2010. However, if you wait long enough every software upgrade is going to cost you more... And if you wait long enough, you won't be able to upgrade, but have to purchase the whole thing outright.

<p>My original question for this post was the economy of getting better/faster renders and vray experience over an R14 upgrade that may not have much impact on what I am using the software for. Nobody has pointed out the specific features that would make me change my mind. I have researched the new features for R13 & 14

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#13   Posted

I'd talk to Stefan at VrayforCD before committing one way or the other.

You need to be sure that the current and imminent versions of Vray will work with R12.

You may find yourself hitting a Vray version 'ceiling' if you stay with R12.

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#14   Posted

C4Ds render engine as far as actually calculating light is actually faster then Vrays. The major difference I find is the materials that they use. C4Ds materials tend to have a more cartoonish look to them over Vray materials. You can get C4D mats to look real, but it seems to take more work. Each render engine has it's own mats so they can't be shared. C4D's engine seems easier to learn while Vrays can take a while. If you generally like the look of Vray you should go for that keeping in mind Vray will have a minimum release of C4D to use at all. They may require R13 or R14 minimum in the future. There is actually another render engine that is way better then Vray or C4D, but it's not quite ready in terms of a few details. I will be making an announcement on the cafe here when it is ready.

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#15   Posted

There is actually another render engine that is way better then Vray or C4D, but it's not quite ready in terms of a few details. I will be making an announcement on the cafe here when it is ready.

Are you talking about Arnold?

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#16   Posted

I can't say

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#17   Posted

I'd say just get vray...it's what I did myself when Macon dropped the module approach back with R12.So I,ve been using vray with 11.5.

The BUT of course is for how long vrayfor c4d will keep supporting old c4d versions,I believe that the next free vray upgrade will still work with 11.5 and 12

The next big paid upgrade,possibly early next year? I reckon will still work with R12

I would check all this with Stefan over at vrayforc4d forum.

For what's its worth I agree that the quality of pro vray renders probably in all fields are better than c4d's render engine.

I think Fastbee has made a very good point about the materials being much better in vray

Another good thing is that there are a lot of tutorials for vray in max or maya which you can very easily follow using vrayforc4d....

@fastbee. Unless there is a new kid on the block,the only thing you can mean is Arnold

Of course you can't answer that....But you have given me hope that not only might Arnold finally come out of its eternal beta,but there may even be a c4d version!

Cheers

Mala

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#18   Posted

There is actually another render engine that is way better then Vray or C4D, but it's not quite ready in terms of a few details

Maxwell? :)

Cheers

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#19   Posted

Maxwell? :)

Cheers

Thea render too? The R12/13 version has been in the works for a while now. I keep checking their website every few days in hopes that it'll be out of Alpha testing and available for release soon ^_^

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#20   Posted (edited)

I'd talk to Stefan at VrayforCD before committing one way or the other.

You need to be sure that the current and imminent versions of Vray will work with R12.

You may find yourself hitting a Vray version 'ceiling' if you stay with R12.

My point exactly. If you look at the MAXON upgrade path you can upgrade from R11 to R13 but if you have R10 and below you are out of luck. Next year the lowest upgrade path will be R12 to R14 which means on September 1st 2013 when R15 is released the lowest upgrade path will be R13 to R15. This means he will have to upgrade by August 31 2013 or be stuck with R12 or purchase R15 at full retail for $3695 or whatever the price is at that point. They have a deal right now that if you upgrade to R13 you get the MSA which means you get R14, for $995. Will they have a deal like that next summer? If they have a deal like that next year the cost will be $1700 if not it will be $1700 plus $650, the cost of an MSA. I am not saying not to buy VRay, I am saying that he will have to upgrade by this time next summer and now is the cheapest time to do that. Additionaly VRayForC4D may drop support for R12, they have for R10 and R11 I believe, and they probably will drop R12 at some point. The bottom line is that if you hang on to R12 your upgrade options may go away.

EDIT: Another option is to go with Maxwell Render Plugin for SketchUp. This will allow you to put off the decision for awhile untill you decide.

Edited by mmVRay

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#21   Posted

I still don't really undertand how the MSA works. If I were to upgrade to Studio now and get the MSA offer, I'd get Studio 14 under the MSA offer. But when it expires (Say I am unable to renew it at the time) does it lock me out of using the copy of Studio I got under it until I renew the MSA?

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#22   Posted (edited)

You never lose the right to use licences & versions you get under the MSA. They are full normal licenses. All the MSA does is entitle you to recieve any upgrades released during it's duration for no additonal cost.

MSA durations are calibrated to the release cycle. Theyr'e always going to get you 1 upgrade never 0, never 2.

The best way to think of them is an upgrade fee you pay in advance. You pay a fair chunk less by paying in advance but you are paying blind because you don't know what they are going to add.

Over more than 5 versions, I've always been happy with the advances MAXON delivered, there is always stuff I use, so I have been happy to pay without knowing exact features in exchange for a cheaper upgrade price.

Others probably have different needs.

Edited by Decade

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#23   Posted

Sniff. Sniff. Can somebody smell something?

There is actually another render engine that is way better then Vray or C4D, but it's not quite ready in terms of a few details. I will be making an announcement on the cafe here when it is ready.

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#24   Posted

It is good to have both Vray and native C4D renderer at your disposal, as they are both good for different reasons. If I am doing archviz then I would definitely use Vray, as it is much less effort to get a photoreal look, but mostly use C4D physical if I am doing motion gfx or vfx..

The combination of more accurate physical sky, more natural looking gi and energy conserving materials in Vray just make life a lot easier when you are attempting to mimic reality. On the other hand, Vray is a real bitch if you want to cheat things for artistic or speed reasons. It is easier to think of Vray as more of a virtual light/camera simulation with the associated long render times that come with that. Whereas C4D native is easy to hack your way around problems, but requires alot more skill to create a realistic look, using your eye moreso than having a realistic light/shader simulation. The advantage that Vray has with accuracy is also conversely its disadvantage in several situations when you need to brute force your way around a problem. Every little change you make to either lighting, shaders or camera settings will effect everything else in the scene which can be a blessing at times, and a curse at other times!

Motion blur, hair , volumetric lights, redner passes and displacement maps have much better support in C4D physical than Vray and the DOF looks a lot better and is faster . C4D physical can be made to look more Vray-like, if you think like Vray. By not using the spec channel and having most surfaces use blurry reflections with some fresnel tweaking along with multiple gi bounces and linear mode you can get very close to the Vray look. I haven't tried R14 yet, but am hoping for big improvements with the new radiosity additions, as R13 physical is extremely slow when lighting interiors with luminant surfaces. Ideally you have access to both engines.

I am quite intrigued by talk of another renderer hitting the scene :smile: I would be very surprised if it was Arnold though as I am not sure of Solid Angle is ever intending on releasing to Joe Public, as they just want to deal with studios. Hope I am wrong!

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#25   Posted

I never even heard of Arnold before now. I thought he was talking about Thea finally being released for 12 and 13 :3

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