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Vue Xstream And Cinema 4d


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#21 jamesinsincity

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 12:42 PM

Thanks Steve - yes I get crashes with shadows and C4D lights - sometimes. I can understand why so many Vue owners are angry at the company - showing their really cool reel, and then finding out that it's nearly impossible to duplicate. I'd have a difficult time deciding whether to use Vue on a live job. The downside is often too steep.

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#22 jamesinsincity

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 12:11 AM

Next Limit makes Realflow / Maxwell Render; E-On makes Vue.

Jim

#23 soccerrprp

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 02:56 AM

A friend of mine has/had Vue xStream and C4D and had terrible times w/ it. When it worked, it was a beautiful thing to see, but it didn't take long (after some costly crashes, or stalls) for him to seek some other way to achieve what he wanted. In fact, he estimated that the time he spent doing it the "longer", non-vue way, he probably spent as much time using vue. Not all projects, mind you, but enough to conclude that the app. was likely rushed to launch.

For us C4D users, imagine a plugin that combines ADD THE SEA + DPIT? which integrates and interacts with the modules. I think, and have seen, some great stuff with both!

I think that it is worse getting frustrated w/ a product that has been launched as a final release AND RIDDLED WITH BUGS, then to wait a little or reasonably longer for a product that has only a few bugs (no app is perfect :)) and is production-ready.

I hope version 7 is actually an improvement in functionality first and foremost and then everything else.


Richard

Edited by soccerrprp, 10 August 2008 - 03:02 AM.


#24 3D-Pangel

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 04:11 AM

Awesome thread. Very eye-opening. For all those who purchased Vue xStream and wish they hadn't, know that you convinced me NOT to get it. I had my eye on it for quite some time, but was concerned how the two programs would work together. Based on the rate of updates, the deceptiveness of their demo reel, etc., e-on sounds like a company that I do not want to business with. I have Vue 6 Infinite and it seems pretty stable on my system, but who needs the aggrevation with xStream's bugginess.

Though I do wonder how ILM and other effects companies are able to incorporate such a buggy program into their pipeline. Is it just that the C4D/Vue integration is buggy?

3D-Pangel

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.


#25 stevehewitt1950

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 04:16 AM

Though I do wonder how ILM and other effects companies are able to incorporate such a buggy program into their pipeline. Is it just that the C4D/Vue integration is buggy?

3D-Pangel


Good question. It has long been suspected on the Vue forums that there is a definite pecking order in resource allocation at Eon. First come the studios like ILM, then Maya and Max integration. C4D gets the leftovers, if they have time.
Steve

#26 3D-Pangel

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 04:35 AM

Good question. It has long been suspected on the Vue forums that there is a definite pecking order in resource allocation at Eon. First come the studios like ILM, then Maya and Max integration. C4D gets the leftovers, if they have time.


Hmm...interesting. So if they are solving problems for one platform and not the other, then there are some serious architectural issues with how e-on designed Vue to intergrate with other programs. You would think the kernel of integrating any renderer to Vue's would tend to work on the same principles - therefore, if they solved one problem on one platform, it would fix it on another with not too much additional work. Obviously, if Vue has to assign a priority to which platforms get fixed first, then it implies that these fixes take more resources than are available at e-on which also means they are not that easy to implement. Therefore: architectural issues with the core design of the program. As such, unless e-on announces that they have re-written the program from scratch, don't experct Vue 7 xStream to be any different.

...also...who wants to be at the bottom of the priority?

Note to self: check out D-Pit Nature tools....they even have fluids.

3D-Pangel

Edited by 3D-Pangel, 10 August 2008 - 04:36 AM.

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#27 stevehewitt1950

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 01:40 PM

I think you are being a bit harsh there about Eon's programming skills. Integrating something like Vue in the way they have done it is going to be a customised job for each renderer. I don't think you can program a "one size fits all" in this instance as you need to know how the renderer you are integrating with works, and control the pass off from one to the other.

I think the main problems with Eon are 1) Lack of programming resource to cover all the things they have to do and 2) being driven to release incomplete products by the marketing department.

Fundamentally, the stand alone version of Vue is a masterpiece of programming. It's the detail and lack of full testing before release that let's it down.
Steve

#28 soccerrprp

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 05:50 PM

steve,

I agree that your points are likely the reasons for the buggy nature of the xstream (i've heard less negative things about core application then the integration). They are both Eon's doing. Or undoing... it seems to me, if you don't have the means to launch a respectable piece of software, 1) don't promise it or 2) if you've decided it will be done, don't launch it until it is ready. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Vue, when it's spot on, has no rival in the industry, so there was no need to rush "buggy" integration.

As harsh as it may sound, if I were Eon, I would have told the Cinema 4D clientele that the integration will "soon" come and not try to launch the integration with the other applications that Eon seems to spend more time accommodating (Maya, 3dsMax). If you were a C4D user, what are you going to say, "well, then, i'm going to get the other app..." What other app? You'd wait.

I once considered getting vue and xstream for our school program, but good thing we didn't. It would have been a ceremonious act of frustration as I would have spent far too much time contacting customer service as to why this or that thing was not working, or that this or that crash was occurring.

Not, perfect, but that is why I like C4D. Compared to alot of other apps, there's more care involved it seems...

#29 stevehewitt1950

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 02:37 PM

This is going to be interesting. Eon getting XStream working with R11. Who knows, they may surprise us all.
Steve

#30 Guest_JosephSco_*

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 12:30 AM

I just bought the Cinema 4D Studio 11 upgrade and Vue 7 X-Stream to use on a new Mac Pro, and am extremely dissapointed. Both seem to run ok on their own but as soon as you try and do anything in one or the other it crashes. I only bought a mac for the stability and I have been unable to use it for anything I wanted to yet.

I would recommend nobody buys Vue 7 x-stream if they plan to use it with Cinema 4D on a mac, I cant comment how it is on PC but it was obviously not tested at all on mac.

#31 jblessing

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 08:44 AM

I'm not too surprised. We put up with all versions of Vue 6 xstream (Mac w/ Cinema 10 & 11) hoping for a usable version for months, but got nothing. We eventually had to stop using it after spending a ton of time learning the program and getting nothing but flicker and instability. If it would just do what's advertised and not crash it would be a great program...
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#32 C4DS

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:44 PM

Well, I have mixed feelings.
I have been working with Vue and C4D for the last two years, making my fairytale project (which has just been completed a few weeks ago).
The C4D part, as everyone would expect, was a joy to work on. The Vue part ... well, extremely irritating and frustrating. Cursing and name calling was no exception.
Even my wife started to recognize the theme. Whenever I was "diffcult to handle" she asked: "Is Vue acting badly ... again?"

On the other hand, if you look at some of the results, there's just no competition. I wouldn't know how to make a fly over of a dense forest. Or even make a still forest background.
Well yes, I needed Vue to complete my short. Could I have done it with any other software (DPIT, XFrog, ...)? Maybe I could have. Next to Vue, I also bought DPIT, but never managed to do anything usefull with it, as it was much faster to generate a landscape of trees and plants in Vue. So I sticked with Vue. The more you use it, the more you know and understand its limitation. I don't say that's a good thing, nor an excuse. The software should be better, at least for what you're paying for. But I mean that in some cases, it can be usefull. The only thing(s) you need to consider: do you really want to spent that amount of money and know that you'll have to do a lot of workarounds, have many head-aches, curse a lot ... and wish to never have bought it in the first place. But for the time being, there's no competition in that area (yet).

Sorry for the long post.

#33 Guest_JosephSco_*

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:51 AM

I thought I should post an update now that I have had the chance to play about with Vue in Cinema 4D after the beta patch. The good news is that Eon seem to have fixed a lot of the core problems with the integration and I havent had it crash again yet during normal operation(as opposed to everytime you tried to open the terrain editor etc.). The only (pretty major) bug that remains though is that it will always crash C4D when you try to close a scene after you have loaded anything from VueXstream. Not exactly what I was hoping for but is promising for the future.

#34 claudej

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:01 PM

I want to add a positive note to using Vue xStream with Cinema 4D. Maybe the version or the system makes the difference.

As I had to renew my educational license on Vue , for an extra $50 I jumped to Vue xStream (and started to use C4D this year)

First the setting
Vue 8 xStream and C4D R11.5
Mac OS X 11.6.2 with 3GB of memory on an old iMac (2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo)

My first impression : Works well

Caveat : Vue 8 and plug-in for C4D are only in 32 bits.

I did some render tests . Here's the link http://www.claude3d.com/3D/xStream.html

Right now C4D is busy rendering a 480 frame (960x540) animation with a huge terrain & trees and the works.
I'll post the animation in about 2 days.

When you start Vue stand alone or Cinema 4D with a Vue scene in it, wait that the whole project is loaded and displayed. If not , it's going to behave strangely.
iMac 24", OSX 10.8.2, Cinema 4D R11.5, Vue 10 xStream - http://www.claude3d.com

#35 claudej

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:55 PM

3 min in Vue and 30 in C4D?? That´s crazy. And the lighting seems less vivid too.

It would be interesting to see some more experimenting, to see if you can get the rendertimes down a bit.


Yes! That's the strangest part. Any pro here can tell how to cut the time down? Without losing quality ......
Why a so big difference in render time ?

Ok found the reason of the strange behavior of C4D. It's not only when using Vue xStream. I have 2 screens. C4D opens automatically on my 2nd screen. If I move the C4D window from the 2nd screen to my main screen before the whole project is loaded and displayed I get the following problem. If I open a menu in the main window and there is a sub menu, the sub menu opens in the other screen. I thinks it's a small C4D's bug, not related to Vue.

Edited by claudej, 06 January 2010 - 05:36 PM.

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#36 claudej

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 02:58 PM

OK render is finished. I knew I was going to have a color banding problem at the compression level. H.264 is not up to the task when there is a fine gradient of color. Sorenson 3 is not bad for gradients. But the best is the Pixlet codec. But almost nobody uses it apart from Pixar. Really good quality and small files. So I'm using .flv as a compromise.

So, here's a 20 sec animation. A flyover of a lost valley in the Himalayas.

A lot of details to correct but as it took 20 hours to render it's going to stay as it is. When I'll get a new computer I'll polished it.

http://www.claude3d.com/3D/C4D_Animations/Pages/Shambala.html

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iMac 24", OSX 10.8.2, Cinema 4D R11.5, Vue 10 xStream - http://www.claude3d.com

#37 Guest_vreb_*

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 02:51 AM

I have been following Vue for years in the hope that one day it would finally be stable enough to consider buying. However, from customer feedback found throughout virtually every major forum. It seems as if Vue xStreme is still extremely buggy and unstable. I am currently using the latest PLE version of Infinite and even with an i7 core extreme,768MB Nvidia graphics card and 12GB of ram. I am still experiencing regular crashes and lots of bugs. Despite this though, I think using the standalone version of Vue will always be the safest and most efficient option!

I spend a lot of time reading other peoples feedback on using Vue products and find it very interesting that even after 8 releases e-on still have not managed to create a stable program. What bugs me the most though is that I have been hearing negative feedback about Vue for years and yet nothing appears to have been done about it by e-on. If so many customers have genuine issues with the software after purchasing it, as we would be led to believe by reading all the negative feedback on forums. Why hasn't e-on made it a priority to sort it out and take the stability of the program seriously? This is one of the main reasons why I have not been able to part with my cash and buy Vue. I am very worried about the quality of the program and especially the after sales-technical support you would be given should anything go wrong. From what I can see on the e-on web site. It looks like they are expecting everyone to have at least one major problem with the software and want to charge you for any decent technical after sales help. If a piece of software has been designed correctly you should never really need serious technical support in the first place.

As someone who is literally dying to purchase this program. I desperately want to see e-on taking stability seriously in future versions and finally sorting it out so I can justify purchasing it. Just imagine how fantastic Vue could and would be if you could actually use it for more than half an hour without it crashing?

L8rz,

vreb

Edited by vreb, 12 January 2010 - 05:53 AM.


#38 Guest_vreb_*

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 03:14 AM

Awesome thread. Very eye-opening. Based on the rate of updates, the deceptiveness of their demo reel, etc., e-on sounds like a company that I do not want to business with. I have Vue 6 Infinite and it seems pretty stable on my system, but who needs the aggravation with xStream's bugginess.

Though I do wonder how ILM and other effects companies are able to incorporate such a buggy program into their pipeline. Is it just that the C4D/Vue integration is buggy?

3D-Pangel


My thoughts exactly. I don't like the idea of dealing with such a company when version 8 of there software still isn't fit for purpose. Surely there must be some way of forcing a software company to correct serious issues with the software they sell? CG forums are full of customers horror stories about both Vue software and e-on. There must be some regulation in force for software sales? If you by a piece of software and it is not fit for purpose, then there must be some way of making the company responsible sort it out. I would be interested to know if all the people who have experienced major problems with Vue after buying it have managed to get a refund or even complained to e-on about the product too!

On another note. Many users have also mentioned that they feel e-on are using false advertising to entice you to purchase the software too? If this is the case and you really need a render farm to generate any decent amount of footage from Vue, then this should be another thing that needs addressing!

Come on e-on, sort it out!

L8rz,

vreb

Edited by vreb, 12 January 2010 - 05:56 AM.


#39 3D-Pangel

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 07:49 AM

Okay...couple of random thoughts on Vue.

I first got into Vue with the LW/Vue 5 Infinite bundle that Newtek was selling for $595. Being happy with C4D, I had no need for LW so I sold it on eBay for $495. Therefore, I essentially got Vue 5 Infinite for $100.

I have since been upgrading the software all along and with Vue 7, I had heard enough about how e-on worked on the integration to take a chance on Vue 7 xStream. Well, if you are a Max or Maya user then Vue 7 xStream will probably work well for you. The C4D piece was pretty crappy and e-on's tech support team makes working with your local Department of Motor Vehicles and/or welfare office seem to be a joy in comparison. This is not to say that they were impolite or incompetent, but just plain bureaucratic. I am sure that is because they are just simply over-run with customer issues and therefore have set up a pretty rigid process you must go through to get support. In contrast, we all rave over MAXON's technical support - which I am sure is due to the stability of the software and as such they do not have a lot to do (think of them like the Maytag repairmen of the software world). e-on support people are not so lucky....rather they are just exhausted and as I think about it, "e-on customer support" is a pretty good name for them (as eon means "a long time").

I was so upset with Vue 7 xStream that I contacted both e-on and Safe Harbor (who I purchased it from) concerning a refund. e-on gave me no reply, but Safeharbor said that should I want to try to get a refund, they would be my advocate with e-on. No promises on getting me a refund, but at least I had someone in my corner. So if you wish to purchase xStream, then consider who you buy it from - do NOT buy direct from e-on.

Now the good news. e-on technical support was able to solve my problem and I did not return the software. Also, I found that after that initial issue (which had more to do with video card then anything else), the software has been running pretty smooth in stand alone mode and only a few issues within C4D.

Now...if you wish to get xStream, there is a very good resource you must tap into - Nick Pelligrino who runs AsileFX.com is also a C4D user and has created a Vue xStream/C4D integration video (it had some banner space here at the Cafe some time ago) - this video came out with Vue 7 xStream and has just been udpated for Vue 8 xStream. His training video goes into all the issues with C4D xStream and how to avoid them and/or appropriate work-arounds. I find all of his tutorials to be very good and easy to follow. Nick is also a programmer and has extended Vue's capabilities/deficiencies with a series of meta-Node plugins. He also has a tutorial series on "Texture Mattes and Camera Projection Methods" which goes into Vue 7.5 xStream and C4D R11 integration for matte painting (though I am not sure if he covers Projection Man - I would think that he does because I would imagine that Projection Man and Vue xStream could be a powerful combination).

Nick is also a great resource in that he is on the e-on beta team and does debug C4D xStream issues on future releases. He has provided a number of bug reports for Vue 8 xStream while it was still in development - so if you want to take on Vue 8 xStream for C4D, Nick is a tremendous resource and our best advocate. I just purchased the upgrade to Vue 8 xStream and I must say that it is performing better on my machine than Vue 7 (same machine and they solved the video card bugs in Vue 8 that I had with Vue 7). I also just purchased AsileFX's "What's New with Vue 8" series of tutorials which does go into Vue 8 xStream for C4D. So go to Nick's site (www.asilefx.com) and check it out.

Interestingly enough, "asile" means "insane" in French. As e-on is a French based company - all I can say is how appropriate!

3D-Pangel

P.S. What I would love to see is someone compare the capability of DPIT, xFrog, SurfaceSpread, C4D instances, and GeoControl2 to Vue xStream in terms of capability. Basically, can you get xStream capability and quality (you have to admit that it does create beautiful landscapes when it works) but better stability with a lower cost via a series of plugins made for C4D.

P.P.S Someone mentioned that there is no 64 bit version of xStream. That is not true, I have xStream running within C4D 64 - it is a separate install for both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions, but it is available.

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.


#40 Guest_vreb_*

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:33 AM

HI 3D-Pangel,

Thanks for sharing the info on your experiences with Vue as its very interesting and helpful. I would also like to see some comparisons between Vue and similar products too. I think that would be very useful and interesting. However, I am not currently aware of any other program that is capable of creating anything quite as realistic as Vue though. If any of the other programs are indeed capable of this, then I would love to know.

All the best,

vreb




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