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#1 3DKiwi

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 05:45 PM

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The post immediately after this one is a Press release from MAXON. I suggest that people read this post before carrying on with this one

Hi everyone. Well the news is out, MAXON have announced Release 13. Don't you love the sexy new Logo. Also checkout the new desktop icon below. My guess is that .5 releases will be no more. As usual we've got some interesting stuff for you to explain some of the new things and enhancements. At some point in the future we'll follow up with a review.

Summary - Major Enhancements

The major new things / enhancements. See below for some examples and links to videos. We've got over 2 hours of video tutorials.

Physical Renderer - Coupled with a Physical camera. Depth of field and Motion blur are now calculated correctly and are much better than previously. See post #2 for a full description.

3D Stereo Rendering (including viewport display). Various modes including Red / Blue glasses and Polaroid 3D type glasses. See post #2 for a full description.

Numerous Character Animation enhancements including new Auto Rigging system, Walk Cycle generator and a new muscle system. Check out the video tutorials by Horganovski

Greatly improved viewport navigation
- Zoom to cursor and lots more. Checkout the video tutorial by 3DKiwi

Workflow and Transform tool enhancements - Object / element aligning is much improved. Checkout the video tutorial by 3DKiwi

New Sub Surface Scattering Shader
- Checkout the video tutorial by 3DKiwi

New XRefs

Interface / Menus Layouts have been cleaned up. Menus have been reorganized and toolbar icons have had a facelift.

Here's a complete list from the documentation of all the enhancements.

whatsnew.png

Members are bound to ask a couple of common questions:

Release 13 scenes will open in Release 12
Generally Release 12 plugins will work in Release 13 but you will need a new serial number from the plugin developer

There are no modelling tool enhancements. That said, modelling is a lot better thanks to new Axis mode and Axis extension handle. Objects and elements can now be easily lined up with other objects and elements. Check out the Navigation / Workflow enhancement videos. Some long standing knife tool accuracy bugs have been fixed

There are no BodyPaint enhancements

What goes with what version?

See the attached list. Don't quote me on this. This is to the best of my knowledge. Refer MAXON's site once R13 is available for accurate information.

Attached File  Whatgoeswhere.txt   565bytes   403 downloads


Some Screen Grabs

New Splash Screens and desktop icon

Newicon.png splash_10.jpg splash_14.jpg splash_15.jpg splash_16.jpg splash_body.jpg

Layouts

Standard

Layout_standard.jpg

Animation (Note in the document settings is where you now define default Key Interpolation for the scene)

Layout_animation.jpg

Visualize - Here I've set up a Stereo camera and change the viewport display to the new Stereo 3D display mode.

Layout_visualize.jpg

The Bodypaint layouts are the same as Release 12. Strangely there is no modelling layout. You'll either have to create your own or copy the layout over from Release 12

Tutorials

(Our Release 13 video tutorials can only be downloaded by Cafe members.)

Layouts / Navigation / Worflow. 3DKiwi has put together a 70 minute tutorial. This is a must see as there are some big changes to navigation and the transform tools.

Click here to go to the download page

Sub Surface Scattering - new shader. 3DKiwi has put together a 15 minute mini tutorial.

Click here to go to the download page

Character Animation tutorials By Horganovski

Video 1 - Introduction to the new Character Builder (CBuilder), a great new tool for quickly building character rigs.

Click here to go to the download page

Video 2 - The new Muscle system in R13.

Click here to go to the download page

Walk Cycle CMotion system

Video 3A - 'CMotion 101' - the basics of using the new procedural animation generator in R13. Watch this first!

Video 3B - CMotion part 2 - demonstrating how to make a spider walk along a path and over an uneven surface. This is super cool. You can build a spider rig and animate it walking in a minute or two and have it walking on things like terrain objects and have follow the contours. Steps can be adjusted so that you can make the spider walk over obstacles.

Video 3C - CMotion part 3 - the pros and cons of using CMotion for realistic human and animal walkcycles and some tips for using it alongside regular keyframe animation.

Click here to go to the download page

Some screen grabs from the tutorials showing the new enhancements:

Vid1Still.png Vid2Still.png vid3aStill.png vid3bStill.png vid3cStill.png

Here's a bit of fun. After watching Brian's excellent videos I knocked up this spider and it walking across the screen. I did this in under 60 seconds.

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Not content with that. I then had it walking over terrain objects and went on to knock up a very crude body and added some fur. Again, this was dead easy to do :)

Attached File  SpiderWalk5.mov   1.07MB   945 downloads


Examples

Physical Renderer

I haven't really done much with the new Physical renderer apart from playing with Motion blur. I've seen some fabulous examples of renders from other Beta testers. These are just a couple of old scenes I rendered with it.

Red Room - Old R11 example scene file. Render time 60 minutes. GI enabled and high sampler settings.

RedWhitePhysRen60min.png

Spitfire Mk5 - My Spitfire from the original BP tutorial DVD. This one has the new Motion Blur applied to the prop. Previously to do a still image I had to fake the prop in a 2D paint program.

SpitfireMBPhysRen.png

Motion Blur

Gotta say, the results are damn impressive. There's a tradeoff between render time and a bit of noise. I found that using the Auto setting for Sampler Quality (AA and image quality) gave pretty good results with a reasonable render time. We still have Vector motion blur but the results are rubbish compared to this (check out the Vector Motion Blur animation below as a comparison to the new Motion Blur). Scene Motion Blur has been renamed "Sub Frame Motion Blur". I had intended to include a comparison render but getting decent results requires a high number of sub frames and render times are very high i.e. frames before and after rendered multiple times.

Helicopter static on ground. Camera 1/15th second. I actually used a still camera for these examples since I'm a photographer and used to using a still camera. R13 has a movie camera option that simulates how a movie camera works.

Auto Sampling Quality - Render time 3 hours 29 min

Attached File  MB_Physical_Static_Auto_Sampler3H29m.mov   10.05MB   847 downloads

Still image
MB_Physical_Static_Auto.png

High Sampling Quality - Render time 13 hours 40 min (but note I was using my computer do other things so this is probably a bit higher than it should have been)

Attached File  MB_Physical_StaticHQ_13h40m.mov   9.88MB   550 downloads

Still image
MB_Physical_StaticHigh.png

Vector Motion Blur as a comparison - Render time 35 min. Note the hard shadows on the ground compared to the blurred shadows with Physical Renderer.

Attached File  VectorMB_Physical_Static35Min.mov   5.06MB   462 downloads

Helicopter taking off. Physical Camera 1/15th second. In this one I had a Motion Blur tag on the body with Motion Blur disabled.

Auto Sampling Quality - Render time 37 min (Low quality was 30 min)

Attached File  TakeOff_MB_Physical_Auto_Sampler37min.mov   5.95MB   481 downloads

Medium Sampling Quality - Render time 1 hour 49 min

Attached File  TakeOff_MB_Physical_Med_Sampler1h49m.mov   5.52MB   457 downloads

Ironically with this one, doing a render with no motion blur but using the Physical Render on Auto sampling quality was slower at 1 hour 49 min. No doubt a lot more time was spent on Anti Aliasing the static rotor.

Depth of Field

While previous versions could do DOF, problems arose when you had alpha channels and or transparency in your materials. This is no longer the case as DOF is calculated as part of the render process. Results are much more accurate and simulate what you get from a real camera. If you want more DOF then you need to use more extreme settings.

R11.5 DOF test scene but rendered in r13 with standard renderer. Tint option turned off for the standard renderer. Sphere in the centre of the screen is set as the focus object. Front and rear blur options enabled.

R13 DOF with Physical renderer. Camera: f4, focal length 36. No GI. Render time 2 min 25 sec. Sampler set to high. (Generally you need to do this for still image final renders otherwise you'll see grain and or jagged edges although Medium or Auto usually give pretty good results and with a quicker render time) You can actually get an 8 second render with the Sampler quality set to low. In fact on low, in many cases the Physical render is quicker to render most C4D scenes.

dofPhys.png

R13 DOF with Standard renderer and default DOF settings. Render time 8 sec. Camera DOF focus object etc same as above.

dofStdRenderer.png


3D Stereo Rendering


I can only show the old Red / Blue Glasses render as I don't have a 3D monitor

3DSpitfire.jpg 3DSpitfireTake2.jpg SpaceShuttle.jpg

Sub Surface Scattering

Here's the render from the tutorial by me.

SSS_1.png

Another one. This is by Beta Tester Günter Nikodim who did the materials on a supplied head mesh.

comp_sss_v002_headskin_gni_0001.jpg

Enjoy folks.

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#2 3DKiwi

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 05:55 PM

The following is a Press Release from MAXON

Friedrichsdorf, Germany, August 1, 2011 – Today, MAXON announced CINEMA 4D Release 13, the next generation of its industry- leading 3D motion graphics, visual effects, painting, and rendering software application. With all new character tools, integrated stereographic capabilities, stream-lined multi-artist collaboration and physical rendering, CINEMA 4D Release 13 builds on the company’s 25-year legacy of enabling digital content creators around the world to produce highly engaging content quickly and easily for a variety of industries.

As MAXON commemorates its 25-year anniversary and its most successful year to date in 2010, Harald Egel, MAXON founder and CEO, observes that today’s work environments are marked increasingly by designers creating content in remote locations, working on various platforms and production pipelines, as well as producing more 3D stereoscopic material.

“CINEMA 4D R13 is supercharged with numerous productivity enhancements that cater to the multi-collaboration challenges our customers face every day,” Harald Egel states. “Artists interested in expanding their capabilities will love the new character tools. And, of course, the physical renderer with stereoscopic functionality is incredibly important as the new way to deliver immersive entertainment.”

Key Highlights of CINEMA 4D Release 13:
MAXON offers four versions of CINEMA 4D, each catering to the needs of 3D artists in different industries. NOTE: The features listed below may not be included in every configuration.

New and Enhanced Rendering Engine
Digital artists are constantly striving to improve the quality of their images. This new version gives CINEMA 4D users a bundle of new tools to aid in achieving the realism they crave.
• Physically-Accurate Rendering: Creating photorealistic images is easier than ever with the new physical render engine. Based on real camera properties, this additional render engine accurately calculates 3D motion blur, depth of field and lens distortion based on the focal length, aperture and shutter speed of the camera.
• Efficient Subsurface Scattering: Now users can efficiently create translucent materials such as milk, skin and wax with a new subsurface scattering shader included with both the new Physical Render and CINEMA 4D's standard render engines.
• Shared Image Sampler: Saves tons of render time by combining sampling for multiple effects such as motion blur, depth of field, area shadows, ambient occlusion and blurry reflections. Sample options allow users to specify a fixed number of samples, apply an adaptive number of samples based on the geometry and shading complexity, or progressively render each frame within a given number of passes or amount of time.
• New Anti-Aliasing Filters: Users can now achieve higher quality anti-aliasing using the Mitchell and Gauss algorithms.

Stereoscopic 3D Workflow
Stereoscopic capabilities are supported throughout R13 to provide a dependable solution and fluid workflow for generating high-quality 3D content across a wide variety of media:
• Stereoscopic Camera Conversion: Gives users control to easily convert any camera to a Parallel, On Axis, Off-Axis or Radial Stereoscopic camera.
• Stereo Image Workflow and Preview: Stereo images can be previewed directly in the 3D editor using Anaglyph, Interlaced, Shutter or Side-by-Side methods.
• Stereo Rendering Options: Allows customers to easily render the merged stereoscopic image or separate images for each individual camera to create a true 3D experience.
• Picture Viewer Support: Review animated stereo renders, adjust parallax and export renderings as merged or individual stereoscopic files.

More Accessible Character Tools
The new suite of character animation features simplify the process of building a rig, eliminating technical hurdles and allowing artists to quickly animate characters of all types:
• New Character Object: Includes an auto rigger, which simplifies the process of building a rig and applying it to a character. Technical directors are able to set up flexible rig templates that any user can easily apply to their characters.
• New CMotion System: Allows users to create their own or apply preset parametric walk cycles based on cyclic motion. Make characters walk along a spline and over terrain, or even manually place footsteps. Can be integrated with the character object or applied to anything in a scene.
• New Muscle System: CINEMA 4D R13 now allows users to create custom-shaped muscles and anchor them to multiple joints within a rig. Includes deformer for skin stretching and sliding.
• New Collision Deformer: Deforms surfaces based on collisions enabling characters to intuitively interact with the environment around them.

Numerous Workflow, Modelling and Animation Improvements
CINEMA 4D is renowned for outstanding ease of use. With an enhanced navigation system and a number of interface improvements in R13, users can perform common application tasks more efficiently:
• Revamped Navigation System: New cursor-based navigation automatically sets the point of interest for rotation and dolly movements based on where the user clicks to begin navigation. This also ensures the speed of camera navigation is smooth and consistent, regardless of the distance to the point of interest - making it easy to pivot around any portion of a model or scene.
• Sticky Keys: Allows users to activate a tool only while its shortcut is pressed and immediately return to the previous tool.
• New Spline Data User Interface: Attributes utilizing spline data can now be edited much more precisely with additional spline types and the ability to view splines in a larger, separate window.
• Location Indicator: Provides artists with a new indicator that hints at the location of selected objects outside the current view.
• Surface Manipulation: Offers flexible options with a new Infinite Axis mode that lets users start manipulation from any point and easily snap surfaces to other objects in the scene. The rotation axis can now optionally display gimbal rotation, making it easy to visualize situations in which gimbal lock will occur, and can also transform multiple objects in a selection individually rather than as a group.
• Animation Enhancements: Based on user feedback, a lot of tweaks were made to the animation system to improve efficiency, including clamping, better curve handling, markers, etc.

Operational Efficiency
With professional 3D artists on the move creating content in remote locations, on various platforms and diverse production pipelines, MAXON’s commitment to integration in R13 enables multi-artist collaboration with improved asset and scene exchange capabilities with other software applications for improved operational efficiency.
• Superior XRef Object: Improves artist efficiency with fully embedded XRef (External Reference) commands in R13 so referenced objects can be textured, animated, and included in expressions or simulations within the master file, greatly enhancing work in a collaborative environment.
• Improved C.O.F.F.E.E. and Python Scripting Language Integration: Equips customers with improved integration of the powerful C.O.F.F.E.E. and Python scripting managers, giving programmers and developers a customizable solution for a wide range of software development tasks that can be utilized in any pipeline. Python plugins and scripts now appear alongside those created in CINEMA 4D's C++ and C.O.F.F.E.E. APIs.
• File Format Support: Allows artists to access a range of popular file formats for greater workflow flexibility. Multi-Pass files can now be stored in multiple channels within a single OpenEXR file. The popular FBX and COLLADA file formats have been updated facilitating easier asset exchange and interoperability.
• After Effects Exchange: Gives customers using R13 unparalleled integration with After Effects with the introduction of stage object support, timeline marker exports and support for 29.97fps.

Miscellaneous Productivity Boosting Features
CINEMA 4D R13 also includes many new productivity-boosting features, including a host of new and improved shaders and more.

System Requirements
Recommended system requirements include Windows XP, Vista or 7 running on Intel or AMD CPU with SSE2-Support; Mac OS X 10.5.8 or higher running on an Intel-based Mac and 1024 MB RAM, DVD ROM drive. Up to 256 threads now supported. Standard DVD installation can take up to 2.5 GB of disk space.

Pricing, Availability and Upgrade Path
CINEMA 4D Release 13 and BodyPaint 3D Release 13 are scheduled to ship in September through MAXON and its authorized dealers. Customers with an active MAXON Service Agreement (MSA) valid through September 2nd will automatically receive the upgrade. Current customers who do not have an active MSA can purchase an MSA before the end of August and be eligible for a free upgrade. New customers who purchase from now until August 31st will automatically receive a one-year MSA with their purchase.

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#3 MichiSchwarz

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:44 AM

holy s****, "motion blur, depth of field and lens distortion based on the focal length, aperture and shutter speed of the camera." sounds like a bit like Vray to me. Great addition....

#4 HSrdelic

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:47 AM

Congratulations MAXON!

Cant wait to try out new toys :)

Cheers

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#5 Neil V

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:49 AM

Nice to see MAXON have addressed the modelling tools which users have been screaming out for since version 10. Is 3D Stereo Rendering really more important than better modelling tools? I mean, come on!

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#6 srek

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:51 AM

Nice to see MAXON have addressed the modelling tools which users have been screaming out for since version 10. Is 3D Stereo Rendering really more important than better modelling tools? I mean, come on!

Actualy the modeling workflow has been massively improved, but i fear you will need to use the demo when it comes in september to realy see what this means.
Cheers
Bjorn

Edited by srek, 01 August 2011 - 03:52 AM.


#7 MichiSchwarz

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:54 AM

"Revamped Navigation System: New cursor-based navigation automatically sets the point of interest for rotation and dolly movements based on where the user clicks to begin navigation. This also ensures the speed of camera navigation is smooth and consistent, regardless of the distance to the point of interest - making it easy to pivot around any portion of a model or scene."

Sounds like the free navicam incorporated in the product: http://www.holgerbiebrach.com/?p=1249

If so: Great!

The new release sounds very promising indeed.

Edited by Suriel, 01 August 2011 - 03:55 AM.


#8 Guest_fariska_*

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:56 AM

Nice additions and I'm quite curios to see what the physical rendering can do (I'm actually a v-ray user)

Nice to see also the openEXR layer support.

Btw... is there anything similar to render layers in this verison yet?

#9 Neil V

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:59 AM

That may be so but I wonder if MAXON truly believe that more users do character animation or 3D stereoscopic rendering on a daily basis than rely on actually modelling stuff? The new render engine enhancements sound absolutely terrific but your priorities seem extremely wide of the mark to me. I'm sure character animators wil be jumping for joy though.

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#10 SKP

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:10 AM

Well well. Those who have been asking for a preview of the next release have got just that.

[edit] What the heck is happening in the lego helicopter clip VectorMB_Physical_Static35Min.mov?

Edited by SKP, 01 August 2011 - 04:20 AM.

I may not be good but I'm slow.

#11 pgoski

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:35 AM

That may be so but I wonder if MAXON truly believe that more users do character animation or 3D stereoscopic rendering on a daily basis than rely on actually modelling stuff? The new render engine enhancements sound absolutely terrific but your priorities seem extremely wide of the mark to me. I'm sure character animators wil be jumping for joy though.


Considering that you can still model in CINEMA 4D with relative ease it makes sense that it is not a priority.
Now is stereo workflow more important...if you have attended NAB in the past 2 years you would know that there is a huge push for this market. huge. The easier it is for people to create content for this market, the better.
I'm a modeler at heart and have been using a third party modeling package my entire career until R13. R13 is the first version for me where I actually feel comfortable modeling...are some of the tools not as robust as my old go to...sure...they are somewhat rudimentry...but I fired up my old modeling program for the first time in a loong time and I couldn't deal...I had to go back to CINEMA.

#12 toulouse

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:40 AM

That may be so but I wonder if MAXON truly believe that more users do character animation or 3D stereoscopic rendering on a daily basis than rely on actually modelling stuff? The new render engine enhancements sound absolutely terrific but your priorities seem extremely wide of the mark to me. I'm sure character animators wil be jumping for joy though.


I see your concern...but as someone who buys models...has avoided rigging....and mostly puts emphasis on rendering (and is tired of going back and forth between Vray and AR)and various dynamic dog-and-pony tricks....I am doing a tentative, conservative, self-conscious, jump-for-joy.

#13 3D-Pangel

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:44 AM

Actualy the modeling workflow has been massively improved, but i fear you will need to use the demo when it comes in september to realy see what this means.
Cheers
Bjorn

Nigel,

Any chance of creating a few tutorials to highlight some of what Srek is referring to? I have been waiting for modeling enhancements for quite some time - and workflow and spline management enhancements may offer more than they sound so it would be great to see that in action.

Overall, balanced improvements and definitely seeing some of the benefits of the changes to core take shape.

I will definitely renew my MSA later this month (it expires on 8/30 - two days before its release, but then I never expected to get two updates in the given year).

Dumb question, but I would assume that I am still eligible to renew my R12 MSA after they have announced the next version?

NOTE TO THOSE WITHOUT THE MSA: the move away from 0.5 releases may not bode well for those looking to upgrade WITHOUT an MSA. Remember that MAXON would always charge more for a 0.5 to full point release than for a full point to 0.5 release. I can only imagine what the pricing will therefore be for an R12 to R13 release. Therefore, if you have R12, I would STRONGLY recommend that you get the MSA. If you don't have R12....my heart goes out to you.

Couple of Quick Questions:

1) Will your old personalized layouts work in R13?
2) Do you get a pair of cheap red/blue 3D glasses in the box? If not, anyone know where you can get some?
3) I assume the improved AE exchange works with AE 5 as well as AE 5.5?
4) Expectation was that python plugins for previous versions were immune to architecture changes - so with the changes to Python core, I am wondering if this is still the case or just that more functionality was added to the python commands
5) Same as 5, but with reference to scripts particularly if they were used to assist in scene management given all the workflow enhancements.
6) HSrdelic: For a while you said you figured out what would be in R13 - well, how well were your predictions to the reality?

Small Nit: Not loving the new logo. The new logo looks like a grey slug grabbing a blue bubble or some futuristic headlight on a sports car. Where are the frame registration holes that would tie to the logo to the term "Cinema"!! What does that logo have to say about "Cinema"? What is this now: digital cinema? Sorry...I am a traditionalist and always like to see the old references to the days when film was actually on film.

Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.


#14 srek

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:50 AM

1) Will your old personalized layouts work in R13?

They do load fine.

2) Do you get a pair of cheap red/blue 3D glasses in the box? If not, anyone know where you can get some?

Sorry, i don't know the content of the final box just yet.

3) I assume the improved AE exchange works with AE 5 as well as AE 5.5?

I haven't checked this myself but i would be surprised if it doesn't

4) Expectation was that python plugins for previous versions were immune to architecture changes - so with the changes to Python core, I am wondering if this is still the case or just that more functionality was added to the python commands

There were no big changes here, but several adjustments and improvements to the Pyhton API might make smaller changes neccesary.

5) Same as 5, but with reference to scripts particularly if they were used to assist in scene management given all the workflow enhancements.

Same as 5 :)

#15 HSrdelic

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:51 AM

For a while you said you figured out what would be in R13 - well, how well were your predictions to the reality?

100% correct :)


@Bjorn

Some info on pricing?

Cheers

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#16 srek

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:54 AM

Sory, i can't say anything on the pricing, please wait until this becomes available on the MAXON website,

#17 Neil V

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:58 AM

Now is stereo workflow more important...if you have attended NAB in the past 2 years you would know that there is a huge push for this market. huge.


I'm not doubting there is a huge push in this market at all but I would say those that are asking for better modelling tools in Cinema(and have been literally for years) vs those that are jumping up and down for stereoscopic rendering is in the region of 1000s to 1. I truly believe that MAXON ignore their user base. They must do. Who on earth would be requesting this feature over better modelling tools? it beggars belief.

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#18 Neil V

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 05:01 AM

Did you actaully publish these predictions? I'd love to see what they were before this announcement.

For a while you said you figured out what would be in R13 - well, how well were your predictions to the reality?

100% correct :)


@Bjorn

Some info on pricing?

Cheers


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#19 deepshade

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 05:02 AM

Ummm.... this is an interesting mix

New Renderer - Looking forward to testing

Character tools - MAXON started to move toward the magic 'Make Great Scene' button - no seriously , its always been just too much like hard work to do this - more general users now have access to what was quite a specialist area. From what I've seen this can only grow and improve*.

Q: Is there a better explanation of the "template' and *does this mean more complex 'auto' systems will come in the future as 'templates'
rather than seeing this all change again, with a new set of tools in the next version

Stereo support - seems like a lot of work went into this, is it a passing fad? Personally - seems a bit of a waste of resources (I guess some big corporate wanted it)

SSS - fixed at last?
Muscles - back again
Spline Editor - brilliant!

Collision deformer - that looks like a great feature, with a lot of potential uses

No improvement in TP
No new modeling tools
Have any of the 'old' deformers been updated ie had essentials like falloff added ?
Did the seriously bad Boole object get an overhall
Pyrocluster - you can't be serious that this is still the only way to make smoke and flames as part of a flagship product and hasn't changed since 2001 (can't do flames and everything suffers from being rendered in virtual balls, cylinders etc) that's just embarrassing!

The rest looks like pluses to me.

Interesting to see how the cost pans out - imagine it will be kill or cure for many v11 users

Edited by deepshade, 01 August 2011 - 05:19 AM.


#20 morpheus

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 05:03 AM

Well, there goes my money when it's ready to buy!

Morph




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