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Jimh    0
17 hours ago, Cutman said:

The node locked Artist seat of Houdini is $4,500 with $2.5k upgrade each year.

 

I do not intend to upgrade each year. I plan to upgrade every 3-4 years which won't be much more than the current cost of upgrading C4D and all of the vast array of plugins I own.

Don't think SideFX allows upgrades once you let your AUP (MSA) expire. Will need to purchase a new license, again. Truly an awesome piece of software, but with a price to match. :)

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Zmotive    57

Unless you plan to limit your renders to 1080p in which case it's peanuts ($200 a year basically). Sure everyone is bananas for 4K now but the reality is very few shows and movies are 4K. TV shows especially are still 1080p by a wide margin. Point being it's not a "defunct" format by any means.

 

Pretty funny that the AIXsponza guys are now Houdini guys. I'm sure they use a lot of tools including C4D still, but it does say something as some of those tutorial examples I looked at are things that you'd expect to see in C4D. Competition FTW. Between this and Blender 3, MAXON stands to lose quite a few customers in the next 12-18 months if they don't start making major advancements, both in terms of solving issues people have requested for a long time and in terms of new innovation.

 

Hopefully they've got some good things up their sleeve that they've been working on for a long time. One last benefit of the doubt as all these hardware and software issues come to a head and resolve themselves one way or another between now and next fall. But for sure I'm going to spend some time starting with Houdini this winter, so if I switch I'm not at Day 1 next summer / fall. Actually a useful thing either way as I'm assuming you can move stuff through the MAXON Houdini Engine thing with the Indie edition, not just full commercial.

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  • 7 hours ago, Jimh said:

    Don't think SideFX allows upgrades once you let your AUP (MSA) expire. Will need to purchase a new license, again. Truly an awesome piece of software, but with a price to match. :)

    If you do the maths it's cheaper to buy a new license every couple of years than be on the upgrade cycle. I intend to buy a new license every 3-4 years, this is what I meant when I said upgrade. People are conditioned to think they have to be on an update cycle by the likes of Autodesk rental and MAXON's MSA.

     

    As I said earlier, with an application like Houdini that is so incredibly deep you don't need to be on the upgrade path. Houdini is not like C4D where aspects of it have been neglected for over a decade and with Houdini you can build your own digital assets i.e plugins and tools to extend the application as you see fit. I know Houdini users who have replicated all of C4D's Mograph objects but obviously Houdini offers a profoundly deeper control.

     

    I really don't think $4.5k for HoudiniFX is in anyway expensive compared to the tired worn out tech you get in C4D for $3600. HoudiniFX is only $900 more than R19 Studio. That should make people wake up as see how short changed they are being by MAXON. $200 for the Indie license is the biggest giveaway in software history and has brought a whole new user base to the application.

     

    I've supported MAXON for 9 years but I'm flat out tired of waiting for progress. It's MAXON's choice not to have kept C4D up to date with other applications over the years and their choice to take forever to deliver on their promises of 'technology for tomorrow' so they shouldn't be surprised when customers walk away. They can't even be bothered to keep a blog going to keep their customers informed. SideFX ,on the other hand, are very actively informing their user base about Houdini https://vimeo.com/goprocedural and pushing the Mograph angle at several public demos around the world on a regular basis and there's a huge tutorial library catering for all levels on Vimeo on YT. It's not like the old days when no one was using Houdini everyone and their cat is learning Houdini and sharing information.

     

    @Zmotive is bang on the money MAXON could face an exodus in the coming years as the two most exciting 3D applications are Houdini and Blender both out developing MAXON by a huge degree. Once the Mograph mindshare leaves C4D they will not get it back and once Houdini is seen as the aspirational Mograph application users will be beating a path to the $200 Indie not C4D. Blender's Animation Nodes could transform Blender's acceptance as a Mograph application and squeeze MAXON from the lower end.

     

    Someone should start a HoudiniCAFE it would very likely be busier than C4DCAFE.

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  • 7 hours ago, Zmotive said:

    Unless you plan to limit your renders to 1080p in which case it's peanuts ($200 a year basically). Sure everyone is bananas for 4K now but the reality is very few shows and movies are 4K. TV shows especially are still 1080p by a wide margin. Point being it's not a "defunct" format by any means.

     

    Pretty funny that the AIXsponza guys are now Houdini guys. I'm sure they use a lot of tools including C4D still, but it does say something as some of those tutorial examples I looked at are things that you'd expect to see in C4D. Competition FTW. Between this and Blender 3, MAXON stands to lose quite a few customers in the next 12-18 months if they don't start making major advancements, both in terms of solving issues people have requested for a long time and in terms of new innovation.

     

    Hopefully they've got some good things up their sleeve that they've been working on for a long time. One last benefit of the doubt as all these hardware and software issues come to a head and resolve themselves one way or another between now and next fall. But for sure I'm going to spend some time starting with Houdini this winter, so if I switch I'm not at Day 1 next summer / fall. Actually a useful thing either way as I'm assuming you can move stuff through the MAXON Houdini Engine thing with the Indie edition, not just full commercial.

    Most films being sold on 4K Blurays were mastered at 2K. No one can see the difference between 4K and 1080P from a normal viewing distance and especially when the images are moving.

     

    I regularly use high frame rate video in 4K productions and no one notices that the HFR stuff is 1080p.

     

    You have to match Houdini Engine with the C4D supported version that's all and the only limitations with Houdini Indie are the licensing ones of <$100k income user and any contracting company. Too limited to be useful :).

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    Midphase    6
    6 hours ago, Cutman said:

     

    @Zmotive is bang on the money MAXON could face an exodus in the coming years as the two most exciting 3D applications are Houdini and Blender both out developing MAXON by a huge degree. Once the Mograph mindshare leaves C4D they will not get it back and once Houdini is seen as the aspirational Mograph application users will be beating a path to the $200 Indie not C4D. Blender's Animation Nodes could transform Blender's acceptance as a Mograph application and squeeze MAXON from the lower end.

     

    Houdini looks incredibly powerful, and the indie license seems like an awesome offering. Having said that, out of curiosity I started watching some beginner video tutorials on YouTube for Houdini and I was surprised at how complex and convoluted doing something as simple as moving an object from left to right can be, or creating a simple table. 

     

    FYI, this is the series I watched:  

     

     

    Same is true for Blender, a friend of mine is a huge fan and has been trying to get me to use it for years, yet every time he shows me how to do the simplest of tasks it feels far more complicated and convoluted than performing the same task in C4D.

     

    I find both Blender and Houdini incredibly powerful (and in the case of Blender, totally free), but it is painfully obvious that these tools were not created for an intuitive artist mindset. So for that reason alone, I don't think C4D is in terrible danger.

     

     

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    luchifer    34
    7 hours ago, Cutman said:

    I really don't think $4.5k for HoudiniFX is in anyway expensive compared to the tired worn out tech you get in C4D for $3600. HoudiniFX is only $900 more than R19 Studio. That should make people wake up as see how short changed they are being by MAXON. $200 for the Indie license is the biggest giveaway in software history and has brought a whole new user base to the application.

     

     

    You are taking into your equation only the power of the app, thats why you think people are shortsighted when choosing MAXON. Thats disrespectful, and also innacurate. I choose C4D because I take into my own equation ease of use. And Houdini is miles behind C4D in that particular area. Its like auto vs manual transmission in a car.. sure, you can drift with manual transmission and do some pretty amazing tricks, but most people prefer to spend more and get an automatic car (at least in my country an automatic cost 1500 dollars more, plus fuel and maintenance)

     

    You love Houdini. Great. But please stop calling our software C(dollar)D, and stop pretending our userbase don't have an informed opinion on why they choose C4D over X or Y.

     

     

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    Zmotive    57
    7 hours ago, Cutman said:

    Most films being sold on 4K Blurays were mastered at 2K. No one can see the difference between 4K and 1080P from a normal viewing distance and especially when the images are moving.

     

    I regularly use high frame rate video in 4K productions and no one notices that the HFR stuff is 1080p.

     

    Yeah many people (consumers) are lost on that point — that from 8-10 feet away, in various lighting conditions it is difficult to notice 4K's improvements in resolution. HDR stuff is a little easier to notice because it can eliminate color banding and so that's a thing but yeah... 1080p not going anywhere, anytime soon IMO. I don't think 4K will go the way of 3DTV which was little more than a marketing gimmick and a way to get people to buy new TVs, but i do think it will take several years for it to become more of  defacto resolution. A lot of things are required not least of which is a whole helluva lot more bandwidth to residential customers for not a whole helluva lot more money (because I don't think people will pay it for that specific purpose). 4K streaming opens a big can of worms in that area.


    The Comcasts of the world will probably play the "you can have your extra bandwidth and only modest monthly price increase when you pry them from our cold, dead, greedy hands" card. They will be the reason for slow adoption, ultimately.

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    Zmotive    57
    1 hour ago, Midphase said:

     

    Houdini looks incredibly powerful, and the indie license seems like an awesome offering. Having said that, out of curiosity I started watching some beginner video tutorials on YouTube for Houdini and I was surprised at how complex and convoluted doing something as simple as moving an object from left to right can be, or creating a simple table. 

     

    FYI, this is the series I watched:  

     

     

    Same is true for Blender, a friend of mine is a huge fan and has been trying to get me to use it for years, yet every time he shows me how to do the simplest of tasks it feels far more complicated and convoluted than performing the same task in C4D.

     

    I find both Blender and Houdini incredibly powerful (and in the case of Blender, totally free), but it is painfully obvious that these tools were not created for an intuitive artist mindset. So for that reason alone, I don't think C4D is in terrible danger.

     

     

    I would say this is particularly true of Blender because it uses so many unconventional UI methods, and its panels and toolbars are organized in confusing ways (not to mention hard-to-interpret iconography in some areas). And unfortunately it's one area where they're sort of patching it up with new workspace stuff for upcoming versions, but not directly improving how the UI looks and works. I think we're at least a couple years away from a Blender that "feels familiar" in the eyes of C4D users. Not to say it can't be learned, though.

     

    Houdini can be a little strange too coming from C4D but I think on balance its UI (if not all of its conventions) are more evolved than Blender by a decent margin. Also I would expect them to continue improving it at a rapid rate. Just like everything else they do with that app.

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    Isleofgough    7

    Cinema 4D has worked very well for me, but since I do not earn income from 3D, the price of maintenance is pretty high. I thought about jumping ship for Modo and I own a copy of that, but its lack of history state and parametric features (beyond very elementary) made it not workable for my needs. Houdini however is cheaper and more powerful, at the expense of some ease of use and stability. On a 2017 iMac, C4D is definitely more stable, but I haven't lost any scenes in Houdini from the occasional crash. Houdini allows one to directly manipulate attributes much better than C4D. For simple animations, I do not find it any harder than C4D. Some things are simpler. For example, if one starts with a sweep nurb in C4D to build a tree, roots, or blood vessels; and then wants to create branches, one has to change the nurb to an editable polygon object. There is no such limitation in Houdini, so this is actually simpler. The issue with Houdini is that everything always is procedural, and this can create a lot of nodes that one doesn't really need. One can collapse these down, but for fast modeling, it is not as easy as C4D. If one is not doing mograph type work, I'm not sure there is much advantage in Houdini other than cost (for Indie). The material system is more powerful, but definitely more complicated.

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    Falstaff    10

    I own a Houdini indie license. When I feel overconfident in my 3D abilities, I'll open it up and try to learn a few things. I'm quickly humbled; however, I've been working towards building up my character animation abilities, and I'm making an actual effort with Houdini this time. It seems like every time they show a demo, a sneak peek, or a release, they emphasize their desire to become a serious player in the character animation space, which gives me a lot of confidence in trying to learn the app. Unfortunately, I don't get the same feeling of dedication from MAXON. The new motion paths in Houdini look extremely beneficial and fun to use, as well as the muscle system they are continuously improving. One issue is tutorials on those subjects for Houdini seem to be scarce, but during the 16.5 video they mentioned that they will be putting out more masterclasses related rigging and animation. 

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  • 6 hours ago, Midphase said:

     

    Houdini looks incredibly powerful, and the indie license seems like an awesome offering. Having said that, out of curiosity I started watching some beginner video tutorials on YouTube for Houdini and I was surprised at how complex and convoluted doing something as simple as moving an object from left to right can be, or creating a simple table. 

     

     

     

    If all you do are simple broadcast graphics then the instant payback of MoText, effectors and cloners can't be beaten for speed but very quickly as your projects get more complex the instant gratification of C4D's toolset becomes a limitation not a strength. 

     

    The real benefit to Houdini is planning your project such that it remains completely procedural, C4D soon runs out of puff and requires the user to bake down setups just to keep working. I would've loved to see the C4D parametric workflow improved upon but it never happened and doubt it will.

     

    Whether you get Houdini or need Houdini really depends on the work you're doing, it's certainly not a modeler's application but it is one for producing bespoke motion graphics. One of the biggest reasons for moving to Houdini is because I'm bored with the C4D toolset and I'm completely reliant upon MAXON to provide the new features this is not the case for Houdini. If I need an interesting way of selecting polygons and extruding them and allowing them to be dynamic as they extrude I can do it.

     

    I disagree profoundly Houdini was absolutely designed for artists. Once it clicks with you it doesn't feel like a science project it feels like an extremely artist centric application that gives you as much possibility for art direction as is possible.

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  • 5 hours ago, luchifer said:

     

    You are taking into your equation only the power of the app, thats why you think people are shortsighted when choosing MAXON. Thats disrespectful, and also innacurate. I choose C4D because I take into my own equation ease of use. And Houdini is miles behind C4D in that particular area. Its like auto vs manual transmission in a car.. sure, you can drift with manual transmission and do some pretty amazing tricks, but most people prefer to spend more and get an automatic car (at least in my country an automatic cost 1500 dollars more, plus fuel and maintenance)

     

    You love Houdini. Great. But please stop calling our software C(dollar)D, and stop pretending our userbase don't have an informed opinion on why they choose C4D over X or Y.

     

     

    @luchifer

    Horses for courses, if you're happy to keep shovelling money in MAXON's direction for decade old C4D technology that's fine by me and absolutely none of my business anyway. You use what suits you and I'll use what suits me. I hope others take a good look at Houdini and get on the bandwagon because it offers unequalled flexibility and features that MAXON will never deliver.

     

    Don't worry I won't be posting much as I've just ordered HoudiniFX 16.5 and will be installing it in the morning and I'll be like a kid at Xmas.

     

    Wishing you well.

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