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Dannyx

Help with normals

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3 hours ago, Dannyx said:

The biggest challenge was getting a round object to flatten at one end and I tried it in MANY ways and messed around with a lot of things, but I guess that's all part of the learning process, so I can't complain....cheers and thanks for your continued support - will keep you posted.

You're welcome....

 

To flatten a round set of edges you just have to select them scale to 0 on the correct axis, either with the scale tool (holding shift to quantize) or zero it out directly in the coordinates manager...

 

CBR

 

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I know this isn't the exact shape you need, but I've been thinking about this a bit more, and I'd like to get across a primary modelling principle to show you that you don't need anywhere near as much geometry in this sort of shape as you started with here...

 

Problem.png

 

The modelling principal that I mean consists of using the lowest possible amount of polygons to describe any particular shape, and using and controlling subdivision surfaces (still called Hypernurbs in your version) so that roundness is added where we need it, and not where we don't.

 

In the above, you started with a 36 segment tube, but you can actually get away with much less than that if you use Subdivision Surface modelling.

Here's how you would make this shape in an optimal and ultimately efficient way, both polygon and time-wise.

 

From left to right, down the rows...

 

5a4aef31389e9_sdsmodelling.thumb.jpg.ceece16117d4538f1d3cfeec17245a8f.jpg

 

1. Get a disc, give it 10 segments and a suitable inner radius, make editable, polygon mode, delete left half of the model, points mode, optimize and place under symmetry to restore the full circle. Now we only have to work on one half of it.

2. Edge mode, select the lowest 3 outer edges, change modelling axis to 'Object', hold ctrl, and scale these edges out.

3. Go to an orthographic view, put modelling axis back to 'Selected', and move the points as shown to make the general shape.

4. Select all the lower edges and ctrl-drag down 3 times as shown to extrude them.

5. Adjust points further to match reference, and to reinforce the corners, which is why we need to move the bottom ones outwards.

6. Now we need to add some control edge loops to tighten up the areas we want to be sharp, so use knife tool in loop mode to add these loops.

7. To give it depth we just need to select all polygons, and extrude, with caps. If you extrude up the normals will be right, if you extrude down they will be wrong, and you'll need to reverse them (which will work because your topology is great !)

8. Add final control loops on inside and outside (again knife tool , loop mode).

9. Place under Hypernurbs and give it Level 3 subdivision in the options.

 

And there is that shape made with a very minimal, nicely controllable amount of polys, and it's 100% quads.

Hopefully you can apply this technique to the actual shapes you need for the project.

 

CBR

 

 

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  • That's nice. I seem to be having trouble with the basics, since it's the first steps in your design that went over my head, whereas the latter ones were more familiar funnily enough...will give it a shot, more to learn stuff than anything.

     

    I'd like to keep this discussion open for now, because there's one more thing I want to do to that thing further down the line once I actually get it done.

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  • Ok, let's do this ! Ran into some problems because I'm still learning my way around C4D and don't know how to do certain things.

     

    14 hours ago, Cerbera said:

    optimize and place under symmetry (clamp points on axis, delete polys on axis both ticked) to restore the full circle

    Don't know how to do that (the symmetry thing, since I know where optimize is). I must also question why I need to do that to restore a circle that's already there. Again, this may be really stupid and daunting to ask, but that's the point of the whole discussion. I need to do something once and then I'll remember it.

     

    15 hours ago, Cerbera said:

    Edge mode, select the lowest 3 outer edges, change modelling axis to 'Object', hold ctrl, and scale these edges out.

    This is because I couldn't get the first step right, but 3 edges ? Isn't it 5 edges ? I got the shape right shown in your second step, but by scaling 5 edges. I can now see why you did that extra first step, since I couldn't understand why and in what direction to "slice" the thing, since there's no axis in your snapshot to know which way is X/Y.

     

    14 hours ago, Cerbera said:

    Go to an orthographic view, put modelling axis back to 'Selected', and move the points as shown to make the general shape

    Assuming I got to this step, is there an "automatic" way to make the points follow a straight line like that together at once, or do I need to grab each one individually and align them ? I know there's the snap to grid option, but that's probably not it. I WAS able to get that shape by aligning them individually, but it takes a bit too much to be the ideal solution, so I'm pretty sure it's not it.

     

    That's it for now, since if I carry on, I'd ran into the same issue of creating something that LOOKS like it, but is not actually it. The following steps seem a bit more familiar, so let's get the first part right and then I'll tackle those. Cheers.

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    12 minutes ago, Dannyx said:

    Don't know how to do that (the symmetry thing, since I know where optimize is). I must also question why I need to do that to restore a circle that's already there. Again, this may be really stupid and daunting to ask, but that's the point of the whole discussion. I need to do something once and then I'll remember it.

    You don't have to do it. But if you do, then you will only have to do half the work later.

     

    12 minutes ago, Dannyx said:

    This is because I couldn't get the first step right, but 3 edges ? Isn't it 5 edges ? I got the shape right shown in your second step, but by scaling 5 edges. I can now see why you did that extra first step, since I couldn't understand why and in what direction to "slice" the thing, since there's no axis in your snapshot to know which way is X/Y.

    It's 3 edges if you're using symmetry, and 6 if you're not. We are not extruding out all the edges, which is why it's not 5 or 10.

    You're right I didn't leave the axis in my reference - I built it on the X axis, so deleted the 5 polygons comprising the left half of the disc.

     

    12 minutes ago, Dannyx said:

    Assuming I got to this step, is there an "automatic" way to make the points follow a straight line like that together at once, or do I need to grab each one individually and align them ? I know there's the snap to grid option, but that's probably not it. I WAS able to get that shape by aligning them individually, but it takes a bit too much to be the ideal solution, so I'm pretty sure it's not it.

    Correct - there is a better way - 2 of them in fact. Select all the points you need to be straight, then either scale them to 0 with the scale tool (shift to quantize) or by zeroing out the correct axis scale parameter in the coordinates manager.

     

    CBR

     

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  • 11 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

    It's 3 edges if you're using symmetry, and 6 if you're not. We are not extruding out all the edges, which is why it's not 5 or 10.

    I think I found the symmetry thing: is it the symmetry object we're talking about ? I deleted half the circle, made that a child of the symmetry object and it worked.

     

    I AM able to get the shape in "step 3" like so: after I'm at step 2 which is all fine and dandy, I select all the 4 points then type 0 for their X scale which makes a mess at first because the points all bunch up in the middle of the shape, but that's ok, because if I now hit E (move mode) and move the points in the X (red) direction, I sort-of get the shape, but there's a bloody triangle in the corner there, plus it doesn't have as wide of a base !

    Problem.thumb.png.7587ec4b84044e43a1a3660a1e78c23c.png

     

    If I manually do one extra step, which is to grab the offending point and move it left (green Y axis), it ends up looking like yours....perhaps I'm too picky here and request too much automation when sometimes it just HAS to be done by eye ?

    Almost.thumb.png.0822b294a86aac13f44e81ef79490656.png

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  • Actually no, it doesn't ! Just had another look: the lines corresponding to the bottom two points in your design are parallel - mine are at an angle still.

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    5 minutes ago, Dannyx said:

    Actually no, it doesn't ! Just had another look: the lines corresponding to the bottom two points in your design are parallel - mine are at an angle still.

    When you are positioning points, just grab them with the move tool, and move them so they are close to the reference. We are in an orthographic view to do this so that we can only move the points on one plane, which makes them very easy to adjust with the move tool. Only when it's roughly right should you scale some vertices to perfectly flat, or use the slide tool to move points along edges. Otherwise, move tool is much faster.

     

    CBR

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  • Very rough, but I sort of got it :D Trouble is the cylinder is not round: it's rather jagged at the top and bottom. Something tells me I'm not doing the symmetry thing right and the two sides don't meet properly.

    5a4bde40beb4c_Gettingthere.thumb.png.c55a44f9a52ee574487db6e18c6ba27d.png
     

    However, if I untick the symmetry object the resulting half seems perfect, so funnily enough I managed to do half of it right :))

    5a4bdfae0ec5a_Gettingthere.thumb.png.c4f4e5580358c82a059c62eca823b099.png

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    You can solve that by selecting the center loop of edges, then scaling them to 0, (as described above, and presumably on X), and moving to 0 on X as well.

    It's easiest to use the coordinates manager for both these.

     

    CBR

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