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CGIHercules

Making anim. short, topology questions ?

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Just want to give you all a thumbs up in writing, both for @CGIHercules willingness and patience to learn and get it right, and to @Rectro and @Cerbera for doing what they do with patience and passing on their knowledge in the clear way they do.

 

Noticed over many posts of course, but thought I'd post this here. Hope you don't mind me butting in.

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41 minutes ago, CGIHercules said:

 

 

I see, well for this kinf of character with almost no detail I believe I can get away withou maps and stuff but in case of more complexx stuff I think I would still need maps. Also C4D doesnt have that "smoothing trick" like Maya, like a preview button so in oprder for cinema not to render it out like a boxy model I dop need some sort of maps right ?

 

 

Please explain what the smooth trick, maybe C4D has another simular thing.  Also the Delta Mush plugin is a nice way to get fast results, its in Maya and with the plugin for c4d its the same thing.  The smooth deformer has a close effect later on when it comes to weighting.

 

The book I was thinking of was the art of moving points, and Stop Stearing.  Iv lost it and been wanting to look at it recently, its  refined a few things I was doing not so well.

 

http://hippydrome.com/Sketches.html

https://vimeo.com/hippydrome

http://www.hippydrome.com/

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470609907,miniSiteCd-SYBEX.html

 

 

 

Dan

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@ABMotion Hey man, let's not forget your generous much appreciated input that helps me grow on a daily basis as well. Even yesterday with helping me on Alpha channel topic and 2D/3D integration and all the clips you provided (that I have re-watched thoroughly:). And thanks for noticing that I am trying really hard.

 

@Rectro  in Maya when you press number 3 on the keyboard whatever mesh you have in the viewport gets smoothing effect applied (Catmull Clark algorhythm) as a preview. When you press it again it goes back to "boxy", hard surface mode. That's the trick I was referring to. So it's almost like you don't need maps if shape is that simple. You need them for surface detail but I can see in my case being able to get away with pressing "3" in Maya.  I don't know if C4D has something similar (except for Subdiv Surfaces) but it is a cool quic way to see how your mesh looks smoothed and it renders as such as well if left in that state.

I heard of "Stop Stearing" and I was gonna order that book actually but I was looking for a software specific tutorial that would show me how to do it in Cinema or Maya so I can apply it right away. But I am interested in general principles as well of course. Som ething like "12 Principles of Animation".

 

 

@Cerbera P.S. This pic is for you....inside of his eye sockets is now n-gon/triangle free. Not the prettiest topology but will smooth evenly and it's n ot gonna be visible anyway but I made sure that's take care of too :)

eyes fixed.png

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6 hours ago, CGIHercules said:

P.S. What kind of arm loops would you suggest me putting in there ?

2b9d2cdddf0706197da1f85c81c9c0d8--modeling-tips-strong-arms.jpg  

 

3767263_orig.jpg?448

 

This sort of thing, although you won't need as detailed as the lower one... in fact you may just not need this detail full stop ! But helpful anyway hopefully to show that next level up of topology. As you can sort of see from the first pic, what is essentially happening is that you begin by inner extruding around major muscle groups and elbows, and refine from there...

 

CBR

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Hey CG nice improvements, can really see a jump from your previous models, your sculpting has improved for sure, one thing i'd like to add is not to neglect the modelling side of things, a lot of people tend to jump straight into sculpting without taking the time to establish a decent modelling foundation or straight up just disregard it, you'll learn alot about topology from modelling characters from scratch, it's a longer process than sculpting but i'd argue you'll get far better control over your model building it poly by poly, especially for low detail characters like these that if modelled well would need no sculpting at all, personally i'd always build a base mesh first, and incorporate as much of the base forms, shapes and basic details as possible before subdividing it then adding the final small details with sculpting, personally for me sculpting is the icing on the cake :D

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6 hours ago, CGIHercules said:

@Rectro  in Maya when you press number 3 on the keyboard whatever mesh you have in the viewport gets smoothing effect applied (Catmull Clark algorhythm) as a preview. When you press it again it goes back to "boxy", hard surface mode. That's the trick I was referring to. So it's almost like you don't need maps if shape is that simple. You need them for surface detail but I can see in my case being able to get away with pressing "3" in Maya.  I don't know if C4D has something similar (except for Subdiv Surfaces) but it is a cool quic way to see how your mesh looks smoothed and it renders as such as well if left in that state.

I heard of "Stop Stearing" and I was gonna order that book actually but I was looking for a software specific tutorial that would show me how to do it in Cinema or Maya so I can apply it right away. But I am interested in general principles as well of course. Som ething like "12 Principles of Animation".

Yes in C4D you first hold Alt key with object selected when adding the SDS tag, and press the Q key toggle the  SDS on and off afterwards.  In MODO its simply the Tab key but as C4D uses a tag method, once applied your magic key is Q.

 

You can of course get specific modeling books and tutorials for a app, but there is no need when it comes to topology as this comes down to general modeling skills, often using the same tools in all apps.  When I started modelling using DAZ3D Hexagon I used all Maya tutorials, then I started making Hexagon tutorials myself.

 

Dan

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36 minutes ago, VECTOR said:

"a lot of people tend to jump straight into sculpting without taking the time to establish a decent modelling foundation or straight up just disregard it, you'll learn alot about topology from modelling characters from scratch" 

 

"it's a longer process than sculpting but i'd argue you'll get far better control over your model building it poly by poly, especially for low detail characters like these that if modelled well would need no sculpting at all, personally i'd always build a base mesh first, and incorporate as much of the base forms, shapes and basic details as possible before subdividing it then adding the final small details with sculpting, personally for me sculpting is the icing on the cake :D

I agree this is a mistake from a modelling point of view, and I would also go as far as to say learn good polygon modelling before taking on retopology tasks as the retopology edge flow is taken from the knowledge of modelling good topology.

 

From a concept/design point of view things change a bit.  If one has no idea of a design, then this is when sculpting comes first.  I dont mean sculpting in C4D for this as I dont see C4D sculpting tools as a conceptual tool set due to it needing the base mesh to start with,  but  see C4D sculpting tools as a modeling aid to move, smooth large amount of verts to attain form fast, or as you say icing on the cake, detail.

 

As @CGIHercules has access to Zbrush he could still well define his concepts within Zbrush alone, then do as he has done move on to retopologising, but from a learning point of view its much more benificial to use the Zbrush sculpt as "The" 2D concept backdrop and modeling it from scratch.  Zbrush has the ability to export a 2d character strip all aligned up.

 

Dan

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19 minutes ago, Rectro said:

I agree this is a mistake from a modelling point of view, and I would also go as far as to say learn good polygon modelling before taking on retopology tasks as the retopology edge flow is taken from the knowledge of modelling good topology.

 

From a concept/design point of view things change a bit.  If one has no idea of a design, then this is when sculpting comes first.  I dont mean sculpting in C4D for this as I dont see C4D sculpting tools as a conceptual tool set due to it needing the base mesh to start with,  but  see C4D sculpting tools as a modeling aid to move, smooth large amount of verts to attain form fast, or as you say icing on the cake, detail.

 

As @CGIHercules has access to Zbrush he could still well define his concepts within Zbrush alone, then do as he has done move on to retopologising, but from a learning point of view its much more benificial to use the Zbrush sculpt as "The" 2D concept backdrop and modeling it from scratch.  Zbrush has the ability to export a 2d character strip all aligned up.

 

Dan

From a concept point of view it's definitely a good idea to sculpt up some ideas, it's far quicker to visualise than to poly model a concept, although i must admit i usually just jump straight in and start modelling from imagination, of course not everyone is able , or likes to do things that way but im just a bit old fashioned that way, i do fear though that developing a solid modelling base is becoming less and less important these days with people starting out in this industry 

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@VECTOR Thanks for checking in and sharing your input. I totally agree. ZBrush is liberating but detrimental for learning basic modeling concepts. That's not old school, that's just what we all got to learn. It just depends what comes first. Box model or idea. To me Zbrush just helps me get an idea.

I wish I am on that level to just start box modeling modeling "from imagination" as you say but I have a lot of difficulties that way. Box modeling is definitely something that intimidates me. One of the reasons is because even if I know what I want it's little bit like working in the dark because I can't really tell if I will end up where I want. Another huge thing is that somehow I always end up having double vertices or double edges or some weird stuff is happening within a model and it's sooo frustrating. I just always find out I have some hidden geomtry and than I have to delete half of the polygons and it's a mess...but that's just me I am a noob. Now what I realized, one way or the other I will have to box model and do poly by poly. Because retopologizing is basically box modeling, poly by poly on top of the existing mesh. I know it's not the same but as @Rectro said I actually use Zbrush just to scetch out an idea. It's quick and liberating and easy to try out a concept. Once I want to commit I can retopologize on top of that and transfer detail later or add additional detail. So I think of ZBrush not as sculpting but 3D drawing software and than later I need to make it poly by poly.

 

@Cerbera Yes first example is actually appropriate. I just need to learn how to do those loops around the elbow part. Since I always do arms and legs in grid like pattern.

 

Oh man I feel so helpless in this 3D world haha :) I am sitting here for 12 hours a day and I can barelly make this effin simple shaped low poly squirell hahaha. So defeated. But I do care to prove that I can do it and that I can get it right. There is so much to learn but I will tackle it one by one.

So far this is the progress I finally finished retopo work ( for now hah) and I added his tail and hands. Hi mouth has a tube going down with a small open ending inside his stomach. I guess that's ok, since another guy who was teaching 3D left his character with a opened throath like that so...if not you guys let me know.

I added some extra loops around his general knee area and I show him "boxy" and smooth in this video. No Ngons, no tries...quads ONLY :) As it's suppose to be. :)

Let me know. Thanks for making my life way easier :)

 

 

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29 minutes ago, CGIHercules said:

@VECTOR Thanks for checking in and sharing your input. I totally agree. ZBrush is liberating but detrimental for learning basic modeling concepts. That's not old school, that's just what we all got to learn. It just depends what comes first. Box model or idea. To me Zbrush just helps me get an idea.

I wish I am on that level to just start box modeling modeling "from imagination" as you say but I have a lot of difficulties that way. Box modeling is definitely something that intimidates me. One of the reasons is because even if I know what I want it's little bit like working in the dark because I can't really tell if I will end up where I want. Another huge thing is that somehow I always end up having double vertices or double edges or some weird stuff is happening within a model and it's sooo frustrating. I just always find out I have some hidden geomtry and than I have to delete half of the polygons and it's a mess...but that's just me I am a noob. Now what I realized, one way or the other I will have to box model and do poly by poly. Because retopologizing is basically box modeling, poly by poly on top of the existing mesh. I know it's not the same but as @Rectro said I actually use Zbrush just to scetch out an idea. It's quick and liberating and easy to try out a concept. Once I want to commit I can retopologize on top of that and transfer detail later or add additional detail. So I think of ZBrush not as sculpting but 3D drawing software and than later I need to make it poly by poly.

 

@Cerbera Yes first example is actually appropriate. I just need to learn how to do those loops around the elbow part. Since I always do arms and legs in grid like pattern.

 

Oh man I feel so helpless in this 3D world haha :) I am sitting here for 12 hours a day and I can barelly make this effin simple shaped low poly squirell hahaha. So defeated. But I do care to prove that I can do it and that I can get it right. There is so much to learn but I will tackle it one by one.

So far this is the progress I finally finished retopo work ( for now hah) and I added his tail and hands. Hi mouth has a tube going down with a small open ending inside his stomach. I guess that's ok, since another guy who was teaching 3D left his character with a opened throath like that so...if not you guys let me know.

I added some extra loops around his general knee area and I show him "boxy" and smooth in this video. No Ngons, no tries...quads ONLY :) As it's suppose to be. :)

Let me know. Thanks for making my life way easier :)

 

 

Yea using zbrush is totally fine but definitely persist with the modelling side of  things, i can't stress how important it is, as you can't always rely on a sculpted mesh to work off of, and at times maybe required to build a low poly base mesh first, either for your own personal projects, or eventually if you choose to for  commercial purposes, things like building hands, feet, heads etc, things , most artist will find the more difficult part of a character to model, also increasing your modelling skills and knowledge will help you understand how to build a character from scratch that will be able to be animated, why you need loops here or there or why polys should flow a certain way, you'll only understand this properly by learning to model well , the problems you mentioned with extra points and hidden geometry is more down to rookie errors and lack of experience, with modelling, and the tools in general, nothing that can't be solved with time and practice.

 

That also applies to non organic modelling, when it comes to building props for your characters and so on. you're doing well trust me, we just want to make sure you have the best foundation going forward, i used to spend every spare minute before work and after work, weekend etc modelling (before the kids came along) it's no easy process believe me but it all pays off in the end, it's the reason @Cerbera and i emphasize clean topo around here and frown upon triangles and n-gons, 1 because they are evil and should be eradicated from the galaxy with extreme prejudice and 2  because learning to model properly now will set you up much better in the future :D 

 

As for the tube to his stomach, it's not needed, usually just a inner mouth cavity will do ( either like this, or a sphere etc)

https://gyazo.com/1055a7499420b4831bb1158c8ce8641b

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