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CGIHercules

Making anim. short, topology questions ?

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Rectro    561
1 hour ago, CGIHercules said:

OH wow, that's a lot of latin terminology :) I was always into super heroes and comic books and working out so I feel like I know where the muscles are and I know how the body functions but when it comes to sculpting and modeling for rigging I don't know if my knowledge would be useful in terms of deformations and rigging. For instance I never noticed that forearm twists slightly like in that YouTube video.

When ever iv watched a webinar featuring the top game industry artist and they are asked what skills do they look for as a character artist, Anatomy always is one of them, more so for realistic characters.  I had done bodybuilding many, many years yet I could not draw muscle correctly, and my first muscle torso I sculpted was pretty bad.  The reason was because I did not know the Skeleton which is the  foundations of the human body.  Without a correct understanding of the Skeleton means you wont know the origin and insertion points of each muscle so the muscles get placed incorrectly, wrong form, wrong direction, and wrong volume.  The terminology sounds complex but its just explaining the Origin, Insertion, type, and function.    When I attended Scott Eatons Anatomy classes he pointed out errors in professional works every week for each part of the body.  Even although most would not notice when he did, the average eye still picks up something is wrong, out of place, disjointed.   once pointed it out then corrected it by drawing on top of it, it went from a good peice to a awesome peice. As it happens the Forearm is very complex as it has a set of Extensors, and Flexors in which change form and position when the wrist rotates, but most of that detail is not needed for stylized.  My interest was more in human sculpture but this info carries over, even when making more stylized humans.

 

I did make a Human Anatomy learning session on this forum, if you wanted to look deeper into that area.

https://www.c4dcafe.com/ipb/forums/topic/94001-anatomy-for-artist-a-introduction-to-the-core-basics-nudity/

 

Dan

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CGIHercules    16
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  • @Rectro Yes I definitlelly want to look into that because it will help me even with rigging.  I retopologized my mesh again. I needed to go back to ZBrush and re-export character as fully symetrical so my retopo tools would work properly and now I am getting somewhere hopefully. Obviously he is a cartoon character so his anatomy is totally crazy but topology still needs to work for rigging. I will try to make it as low poly as possible and than add any additional loops where they belong. This is progress so far. I think I might need more mouth and eye loops (some faces look like tries but they are all quads.

    redone.png

     

     

    P.S. I am retopologizing his hands last 5 hours and I have no idea why I can't do it. This is crazy hard. Probably harder than box modeling even.

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    VECTOR    429
    3 hours ago, CGIHercules said:

    @Rectro Yes I definitlelly want to look into that because it will help me even with rigging.  I retopologized my mesh again. I needed to go back to ZBrush and re-export character as fully symetrical so my retopo tools would work properly and now I am getting somewhere hopefully. Obviously he is a cartoon character so his anatomy is totally crazy but topology still needs to work for rigging. I will try to make it as low poly as possible and than add any additional loops where they belong. This is progress so far. I think I might need more mouth and eye loops (some faces look like tries but they are all quads.

    redone.png

     

     

    P.S. I am retopologizing his hands last 5 hours and I have no idea why I can't do it. This is crazy hard. Probably harder than box modeling even.

    topo looks ok id add a couple more for the mouth, so that polys between the edge of the mouth and cheeks are a little more even eyes could also benefit from an extra loop or two although keeping it low poly is a good idea, it's less to weigh later on but it also depends on how much expression you need from the face, also i'd change those irregular polys either side of the nose and turn those into a loop for the mouth area. I'll try and draw something up for an example ( not at the computer) as for the hand topo, it ties back into what I was saying earlier. they are a problem area as the edge/ segment count coming off the hands will be different most of the time to what you have coming off the arms at the wrist. so you need to reduce that either in the palm or on the top/ back of the hand (best to do this in an area that wont deform) so that they match and can be connected  can we have a look at what you have so far ?

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    CGIHercules    16
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  • 1012 faces. No tris and n-gons. I put loops where I thought needed. I don't know how to retopologize hands . I did one but I didnt know how to copy and apply to the other so I have to re do it again. Whole body took me 2 hours in 10th try and hands took me like 2 days and I still didn't put even one polygon down. I have to clue what to do with hands

    1.png

    2.png

    3.png

    4.png

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    VECTOR    429

    can you upload the hand and arm section?  

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    CGIHercules    16
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  • So, is this animatable ? No tries and N-Gons as far as I know and computer can find. Sits at around 1450 faces which makes it, I don't know I guess lighter model by today's standards. Smooths and subdivides well (which I guess mean might work for animation). I tried to have same size quads everywhere and of course loops around eyes, mouth, ears, elbows, shoulders, hips, knees, neck and root of the tail...well , all the places I expect him to twist or wiggle in.

    Palm of hand topology...Ughhhhh....I really don't know what to say there I have done the palm must be 40 times (no joke) at this point and as of now I can't do better. My skill just does not allow me. They smooth well but how they rig.... we will see.
    If by you this is a "green light" I would proceed with the only other character I have and than I will upload his topology here too.

     

    Thank you everyone, you are TRAMENDEOS help !

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    Rectro    561

    Hands, Feet, Ears I wont bother retopo, it just takes too long, I prefer to model these things.  For hands you need to have a bit of Anatomy understanding.  Loops around the base of the thumb, each phalanx joint segment slightly open at the nuckel, closer together underneith to form the crease.  The hands them self are a project in of them self.

     

    Iv added my own study sheet which will help you decide where the edge loops need to be, you can just choose the basic needed ones adapted to your own needs.

     

    Iv added a draw over of your new version.  You have lost the edge that divides the upper and lower, inner and outer eye.  This edge gives the eyes a folding point.  The Wrist needs a clean set of loops at the articulation point. If you wanted to do things in a better learning order learn the basic anatomy of a hand like the length of each finger and each nuckle, once you got this then your making a educated decision on how your stylising it based on some realistic deformations.  Then with that knowledge sculpt a few hands, then Go in and model a hand from scratch.  

     

    PS: Here is a video tutorial I did for this Cafe a while back.

     

    Dan

    week 6 Hands.jpg

    eyes and hands.jpg

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    CGIHercules    16
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  • @Rectro I need to watch your video carefully now. I did do what you told me (well at least attempted to carry on the task) and made some changes to the model.

    This is all very excruciating but I know necessary and great learning curve (steeeep one).

     

    Untitled.001.jpeg

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    CGIHercules    16
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  • @Rectro As far as eyelids, I never asked you...how is that done ? Is that a separate piece or should it be a part of the model ? I don't know I just have eye sockets and that's all. The only thing that I will add will be a TOOTH (different material obviously) as well as 2 spheres for eyes (also different material) but I never thought about eyelids.

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    Rectro    561
    4 minutes ago, CGIHercules said:

    @Rectro I need to watch your video carefully now. I did do what you told me (well at least attempted to carry on the task) and made some changes to the model.

    This is all very excruciating but I know necessary and great learning curve (steeeep one).

     

    Untitled.001.jpeg

    As your becoming more aware of the process you know that there is no such thing as a "simple character" in the terms of how much work is involved.  Its more excruciating if you get spoilt first with the likes of Zbrush, it appears to gets to there very fast but not complete, and modeling knowledge is needed which ever way you go about it.  Ears, Hands, and Feet are modeleing sessions in their own right, and the head most certainly is.  I think you should be pleased with your efforts, its no easy task as it involves loads of skill sets to complete a animated ready character so dont worry if its takes days, even a couple of weeks.

     

    When you add the extra loops you dont need for them to be so close together.  Thing of the loops this way.  The middle loop is the folding line, and the loop either side is a structure supporting loop.  You can get even better deformation using triangles at the back of limbs for low poly characters, and it seems many are doing this.  Its like alot of things, we can break down a task into tiny steps which makes it seem very complex, but once we get the basic priciples down we start to use our own intuition, and experience, and most of this stuff is about problem solving which is why tutorials can only take someone so far as the whole process is so not linear, a good 3D artist needs to be adaptive.  Your gain allot from doing this project.

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    Rectro    561
    54 minutes ago, CGIHercules said:

    @Rectro As far as eyelids, I never asked you...how is that done ? Is that a separate piece or should it be a part of the model ? I don't know I just have eye sockets and that's all. The only thing that I will add will be a TOOTH (different material obviously) as well as 2 spheres for eyes (also different material) but I never thought about eyelids.

    The eyes should be made separate.  Now making eyes can be very simple balls with a texture on it, or made as a two layer, or 3 layer method.  The layer methods always give best results as it uses refraction and reflection.  The eyes should be made during the modelling process to help you fit the eye lids to the eye geometry.  The Eyes can be made either as a  whole sphere, or half.  If you go for half make sure the pivot point is at the back centre of the eye.   The eyes are a separate modelling process and need their own level of detail and attention.

     

    When I make teeth I make them as two seperate peices of geometry upper and lower teeth.  Eyes are made seperately.  What I do is duplicate the left single eye in Zbrush and mirror it over, its faster doing it there.  Make sure you keep the eyes seperate when going to rig them.

     

    Il add some pics.

     

    Dan

    eyes two shell.jpg

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