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C4D R20 - what do you guys expect?

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1) Selection tools - Double clicking any type of component,  in any type of transform  and selection tool to select loops and rings just like in Maya. Partial loop and ring selection again just a matter of double clicking the end of the loop or ring. A hotkey modifier to temporary activate that thing called Live selection (In Maya its the tab key).  Rectangle selection doesn't need to be a different tool just drag a damn square in any selection tool  or transform tool you  might happen to be.

 

2) Modeling tools

-  Advanced  and refined : Circularize, Bridge and Wedge (Hinge from edge)  just like in Maya

- Precision tools for adjusting "loops" post factum  and fixing topology like all the freaking 3ds max Loops Panel lol 

- Set Flow, Make Planar, View Align, Grid align 3ds Max wise

 

3) A Refined and consistent Symmetry mode for most of the modeling tools. (partial symmetry supported ) and some tools of that like.

 

4) Open subdiv How is the Cinema 4d  workflow for it?  What about smoothing groups? I would add these as well  but Im not familiar with how C4D use them. Any equivalent for them ? Max really excels at this with lots  of selection options and crease sets management.

 

So yeah mostly modeling stuff from what i happened to  figure it out in the program by now coming from a  different background ( some modelling in Max, Uv maping and Motion graphics done in Maya). 

 

5) Motion graphics wise I would like to see these new level of control MASH brought to the table .At this Point, MASH seems way more powerful than Mograph and the Mainframe devs continues to deliver very consistent updates. In combo with the super fast Maya 2.0 viewport  makes him even more reliable.  It has a lot of potential  for Modelling purposes as well (I suspect  in the future the MASH editor will somehow supplement the lack of Max modifier stack).  It will probably be a away more advanced procedural modeling than Max stack but Maya it will do it in its own Frankestein-ish way (to be read very convoluted).

 

I dont know why motion graphic artists say MASH has a a cumbersome workflow. First of all assuming you have a minimal experience with  Maya youll notice that motion graphics seem to its by far the simplest,fastest and  most interesting thing you can do  with the program in order to achieve some decent results. Back then  when MASH it was first integrated I was  stunned how easily is to replicate these UI motion stuff  (you can get them free from Autodesk Creative Market) and other cool medical animations.

 

 

 

6) ofc the viewport performance improvements. I wonder  if this would make possible to implement a better wireframe display that  Blender has it on the way for the 2.8 viewport and Houdini already from 14 version . It seems it fades out  the wires on the back of the model. Blender seems to add something extra to the mix that makes very dense models shapes and contours to be more distinguishable. I wonder  how taxing is on the system such implementation.

 

Houdini                                           Blender 2.8

jqTXPLS.jpg       o8b1Y9j.png      TiNh8ha.jpg     

 

 

 

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:13 AM, DBVFX said:

Hey guys, what do you expect will be coming to C4D with R20? Really curious to see some predictions/wish lists lol!

Idk if anyone has mentioned this yet, but i foresee a better weight/skin management coming to R20! Anyone else think so?

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I would also like to see some additions to the vfx section. Fluids, smoke and the like so I won't have to spend a fortune on additional plugins. I bought x-partilces 3 a few years ago and got a free upgrade to 3.5. Back then it cost me about $350 for the plugin, now it'll cost about $393 just to upgrade to version 4. And a new license is almost $800.  I just don't have the money for the upgrade nor to buy turbulence fd or realflow. For the cost of c4d and the increase in the MSA I expect some sort of native vfx tools. Even a native renderer that supports open vdb would be nice without having to buy a third party renderer. Don't get me wrong, I love MAXON but my situation is this. I work at a small studio where I convinced them to buy C4d Studio, since I am pretty new to c4d I do mainly smaller tasks, like blowing leaves, tiny butterflies things like that.  To stay current and learn more about the software I bought a license of R17 a couple years back for home learning, never in my life did I think I would spend that much on software when I make no money freelancing. MAXON really needs to release a non-commercial learning edition or c4d Studio or an indie version. I don't care if the render is covered in watermarks, I just need something to learn on that won't cost my $3500 for a license and almost $1000 a year more every year, not including thousands of dollars in plugins.  

 

Houdini, max, maya have incredible fx tools. Modo and Lightwave allow you to import open VBD smoke from other programs. Blender ( which is free ) has some decent fluid and smoke capability plus Mantflow coming soon http://mantaflow.com for free and a nice looking flip fluid add one which is expected to cost under $100 https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?445158-FLIP-Fluids-Addon-(Beta)-A-liquid-fluid-simulation-tool-for-Blender. If MAXON can incorporate and improve on Naive fx that would be great. Sorry if this seems like a rant, but this is what I'd like to see most in R20.

 

 

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3 hours ago, briankoko said:

I would also like to see some additions to the vfx section. Fluids, smoke and the like so I won't have to spend a fortune on additional plugins. I bought x-partilces 3 a few years ago and got a free upgrade to 3.5. Back then it cost me about $350 for the plugin, now it'll cost about $393 just to upgrade to version 4. And a new license is almost $800.  I just don't have the money for the upgrade nor to buy turbulence fd or realflow. For the cost of c4d and the increase in the MSA I expect some sort of native vfx tools. Even a native renderer that supports open vdb would be nice without having to buy a third party renderer. Don't get me wrong, I love MAXON but my situation is this. I work at a small studio where I convinced them to buy C4d Studio, since I am pretty new to c4d I do mainly smaller tasks, like blowing leaves, tiny butterflies things like that.  To stay current and learn more about the software I bought a license of R17 a couple years back for home learning, never in my life did I think I would spend that much on software when I make no money freelancing. MAXON really needs to release a non-commercial learning edition or c4d Studio or an indie version. I don't care if the render is covered in watermarks, I just need something to learn on that won't cost my $3500 for a license and almost $1000 a year more every year, not including thousands of dollars in plugins.  

 

Houdini, max, maya have incredible fx tools. Modo and Lightwave allow you to import open VBD smoke from other programs. Blender ( which is free ) has some decent fluid and smoke capability plus Mantflow coming soon http://mantaflow.com for free and a nice looking flip fluid add one which is expected to cost under $100 https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?445158-FLIP-Fluids-Addon-(Beta)-A-liquid-fluid-simulation-tool-for-Blender. If MAXON can incorporate and improve on Naive fx that would be great. Sorry if this seems like a rant, but this is what I'd like to see most in R20.

 

 

Can't see it happening to be honest, MAXON know Xparticles, pretty much have that side of things locked down, with the addition of real flow and Turbulence fd also on the market. Another thing i'd love to see, which im certain also won't happen is being able to loop select points on the ffd cage, manually selecting point, especially if you have a rather high segment count ffd, is tedious to say the least, and would be made a lot easier with that function 

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On 3/14/2018 at 8:47 PM, Zmotive said:

Sure Thing

  • A big boost to ProRender functionality and performance. This is almost a slam-dunk IMO given the direction they started with, with eGPUs hitting the scene on Mac (and Mac being an AMD-centric platform), and with the general push to get people to adopt this technology. They've invested heavily in it and stated from the start it will be a phased-in tech.

Low Probability

  • Nodal materials system. I think with the advent of multiple rendering platforms that have their own nodal systems, and integration with C4D, this seems like something they'll leave to other companies. Nodal also tends to go away from their core, simple-to-use workflow.

It stings a bit to realize that ProRender users on other platforms (Maya, Blender, Max, Solidworks) all get the latest version directly from the ProRender site for free, while MAXON users are forced to wait for a proprietary integration that is quite expensive.

 

As far as nodal materials are concerned: come on, this is 2018. MAXON NEEDS to integrate nodal materials to prevent it from becoming a laughing stock in this area. ProRender is literally screaming for material nodes.

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On 19/03/2018 at 12:48 PM, Orphydian said:

4) Open subdiv How is the Cinema 4d  workflow for it?  What about smoothing groups? I would add these as well  but Im not familiar with how C4D use them. Any equivalent for them ? Max really excels at this with lots  of selection options and crease sets management.

It's embarrassing I'm afraid. Just doesn't work with UV mapped objects, so is utterly useless in a professional workflow. And still is !  Nearly 2 years and 2 full versions after its integration nothing has been done to fix this, despite my frequently calling it out and reporting it !!! And we have nothing as great as Max's smoothing groups, and the way that works with OSD.

 

CBR

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15 hours ago, hvanderwegen said:

It stings a bit to realize that ProRender users on other platforms (Maya, Blender, Max, Solidworks) all get the latest version directly from the ProRender site for free, while MAXON users are forced to wait for a proprietary integration that is quite expensive.

 

As far as nodal materials are concerned: come on, this is 2018. MAXON NEEDS to integrate nodal materials to prevent it from becoming a laughing stock in this area. ProRender is literally screaming for material nodes.

Yeah it's not optimal how much time will have to pass for each ProRender update but I'm willing to keep an open mind for a couple releases, see how it goes.

 

Nodal stuff: remember, I wasn't saying what I think should happen, I was "wagering" what I think WILL happen. :) Big difference. For me the #1 thing is object management / main viewport improvements and nothing else is a close second but not the point of the thread ultimately.

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18 hours ago, Orphydian said:

is Prorender the same unreliable thing on other software as well?

I can only compare to Blender. ProRender in Blender is nicely integrated, easy to use, and is reliable. Hardware acceleration works very well, and a library of common preset materials makes it very quick to set up scenes. Denoiser is built-in. All in all, works just fine.

 

When I compared the C4D version a while ago, I was struck by how shoddy C4D's implementation of ProRender was/is compared. I found ProRender in Blender to be much easier to use and setup.

 

Having said all this, C4D's ProRender integration should be much better in V20. I regard V19 as a public alpha/beta version.

 

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On 3/20/2018 at 12:48 AM, VECTOR said:

Can't see it happening to be honest, MAXON know Xparticles, pretty much have that side of things locked down, with the addition of real flow and Turbulence fd also on the market. Another thing i'd love to see, which im certain also won't happen is being able to loop select points on the ffd cage, manually selecting point, especially if you have a rather high segment count ffd, is tedious to say the least, and would be made a lot easier with that function 

I don't think XP or TFD has anything on lockdown. Maybe the solo C4D freelance market will rely on these plugins. But if C4D wants to be taken seriously in production houses (which it has the capabilities to do so), I can tell you with certainty that while there might be a couple of licenses of XP floating around for farting around on, but anytime serious effects/particles work needs to be done, the first person producers turn to are Maya artists. 

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55 minutes ago, smibrand said:

I don't think XP or TFD has anything on lockdown. Maybe the solo C4D freelance market will rely on these plugins. But if C4D wants to be taken seriously in production houses (which it has the capabilities to do so), I can tell you with certainty that while there might be a couple of licenses of XP floating around for farting around on, but anytime serious effects/particles work needs to be done, the first person producers turn to are Maya artists. 

Tfd maybe but xparticles is a completely different  story and  yea because Well  Maya is the go to industry standard, but I can see that changing in the near future with what side FX are doing with Houdini, there are many tools and softwares in the production pipe line and I just can't see MAXON delving heavily into the partical effects/sim area where the likes of insydium are already way ahead, they know that Maya dominates that area of the industry and I'm sure they also know that a new advanced partical and sim system  isn't going to change that, so they'll continue to concentrate on the areas they do excel at

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A bit late here, so here is my expected list for r20, and also my wish list.

 

1: Fully Modelling Symmetry, and Re-symmetry.

 

Its a basic feature that all modelling applications have, and by now C4D should have it.  A proper symmetry feature which is not a tag but a global switch that simply allows symmetrical modelling and tasks throughout C4D which also including Uv mapping, Painting, modelling.  Along with this have a re-symmetry tool that works of the basis of both object space, world space, and vertex position.

 

2: Faster all round performance.

 

Faster performance in the view port, especially for character animation with deformers, and frame rate to preview timing.   Speed all over, the updated core should show this when the tool set is updated to use it. Hair to Hair, Hair to Surface are too slow for any use.  The muscle system has no cache.

 

3: Dynamics refinement and updates.

 

There are a few areas I see C4D struggle within the dynamics.  Dynamic IK even with 100 iterations can still have errors when using collision surfaces.   Hair to hair simulation would sort out the nasty intersecting hair when having multiple layers underneath each other.  Self collision is a area that the muscle system has non, deformers such as jiggle needs to simulate self collision. Using a low collision radius value for hair guides causes odd behaviour at roots.   Cloth is not very accurate.

 

4:  Modelling tools.

 

Quad fill, multiple edge selection bridge, do away with dissolve just use the back space key, and a simple cut n paste command to copy polygon selection from model to new mesh.  This takes way to much time up to cut a selection from one model to a new mesh layer. Axis modeling from normal, local from selection of object, or another object, or multiple objects needs refining.  A universal manipulator tool handle would save a great deal of time when using fast extrude so one could position, scale and rotate without changing tool handles.  Macro recording and script saving would also make doing repetitive task over again much faster.

 

5: Fixes 

 

General fixes for tools that have been needing a fix for a long time as well as new tools introduced such as PSD morphs do not render, they only show in the viewport. OpenSub Div needs fixing.

 

6: Pro Render updates.

 

Not as if Im interested in this as I use Vray, but I expect to see more of C4D core features work with Pro render such as hair, sss and major stability and speed improvements.  I also think this is one area where a nodal system will be introduced.

 

7: Updated Expresso

 

I think we will see some updates in this area.  Im quite new to this area but have read many who do use it state how it needs a revamp.  This is a powerfull area of C4D and would do well to work even better according to others.

 

8:  Features I dont need.

 

I expect there will be mostly features that I dont need as C4D is at its core a Mograph tool  so expect to see most new things in this area.

 

Thats what I expect, this is what I wish for.

 

1: Character rigging and animation

 

I wish for MAXON to aim high and be a contender to Maya.  Give new users a reason to purchase it for character animation.  It serves me, but clearly Maya is the chosen tool for this, and Id like to see the character rigging abilities  be on par with Maya in regards its vast tool set and speed.  The C4D character tool needs to support Mocap while retaining its control rig, retargetting needs to work better with more rigs and to correct itself for joint alignment.  Order of operation needs a more robust way of solving permissions in how we can find what is causing a complex part of the rig not to work.  NLA has its flaws in that you cant mix key framed animation with a motion clip within the same motion clip layer.  Even if a joint chain is added to a animation layer it still can mess up when trying to mix key frame animation with motion clips.  a ease in ease out to override portions of a motion clip would be better than using a transition  tool.  At the moment to disable a joint such as the arm you can only turn it on or off, we need key frame blending for this.  A better method for fixing feet into position is needed when blending from one motion clip to another.  Although you can use the Pivot object to get it in place, ti dont stop the foot from sliding in place.  A new pivot should be made as a option from the last position on to a new motion clip, at the moment you have to turn on snapping to manualy position it to the last pivot object.  The pivot object should be allowed to be frozen in another position.  At the moment if the rigs pivot position is at the hip and you wish for the pivot object to be at the feet, while you may move it there in no time soon it will revert back to the hips.  Align to spline has no -Z axis so you have to reverse the spline, and key the position from backwards to get character to walk forwards.  These are just some area that need to be worked out better.

 

2:  Muscle system

 

I dont see any video training on this, or hardly anyone using it.  When I went through this system I could see its short falls that resulted in more time spent than predictable results.  Its hard to keep on track with the 3 positions that get locked in.  The segments can not be changed after setting up the anchor points as it messes their position up from either end.  You cant create your own custom muscle shapes to form flat sheets of muscle. Dynamics are unpredictable with no cache available.  More segments to the muscle results its bad deformation for dynamics.  Muscles do not self collide, and its tricky to get the muscle skin to deform well.

 

3:  Facial rigging 

 

Id like to see a facial rigging solution for C4D.  some of the features within C4D combined can do it, these need to be brought together to new tool sets to make it easier.

 

4: Hair refinement

 

Hair while is great, and the next best thing to Maya, Max its still needing some refinements.  Self collision for hair or a better force detention system to keep layers of hair intersecting will result in much better renders. The hair does not grow from around the guide, but on a flat plane between one guide to another.  This makes it very difficult to make advanced hair styles such as braided hair.  If you could grow many hairs around a single guide this would be much better if that was added as a option.  Hair farm like styling from geometry would make styling so much more easier.  Make hair grow from volume of polygon objects. A Braid tool would be helpful, and the ability to save hair styles in which when applied to another character it works out the scale and adjust its settings to produce the same results.  Hair material clumping needs to be made more simple, hair needs to work with ray traced shadows, not just soft maps. Hair instancing geometry has no option to collide with itself or other objects.  This is a huge deal as not only will this let you have objects that collide for things like flowers, trees, reeds, bushes, but they will be groomable, and work with hair dynamics.  The other major advantage for this is to remove the huge long task of making hair cards.  Hair cards that are dynamic, can be goomed, yet collide with each other.

 

5: Deformers to work with dynamics.

 

Deformers such as jiggle simulate softbody but has no self collision.  If the collision deform was much better at solving outside, and inside volume and work with the same object to collide with itself that would help.  The collision deformer is so powerful, yet it fails to get me the ideal results

 

So there you have it much expected and wish list.

 

Dan

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