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CINEMA 4D R20 OVERVIEW

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I wish everyone could have seen the live stream Chris Schmidt did today. He was just exploring the new version and the crazy, complicated stuff he was ending up with just goofing around with fields was really cool. Having multiple, animated fields moving around on one plane effector with springy delays and decays produced some wild results.

 

Here's the livestream Chris did, goes for nearly two hours.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/291897153

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I'll try to be fair and balanced (tough I know :) )

 

Had a bit of time now to look through things. This is clearly the best and biggest update in years and there's a lot of things I like. However it's not the "Big one" as many of us were expecting. The antique UV toolset is part of the old core so with no updated UV toolset R20 is still heavily reliant on the old core. Hence no big improvements in handling lots of objects apart from multi instances. My guess is the core is done and has been done for a few years. Problem is they were late starting on the UV toolset rewrite. To take out the old UV toolset they have to put in the new core completely and they can't put that in until the UV toolset is more or less complete.

 

I think if I was still using C4D I would be reasonably happy with the update although it largely depends on what you do and what version you are running. As a hobbyist who might only be using the Prime version I'm disappointed to see that I wouldn't be getting the new volume modelling, probably the thing that I would get most use out of. Looks like my Bodypaint tutorials are safe for another year with the toolset still the old one as mentioned. MAXON are really dragging the chain updating the UV tools. MoGraph users should be pretty happy and there's plenty for them to play with.

 

So well done to MAXON and their team. Some excellent enhancements but I think you should say when the full new core with updated UV tools are coming. But I can't see anyone using another 3D app busting their gut to jump ship to R20. In fact Blender 2.8 looks like it could pick up a few disgruntled users from various 3D apps.

 

So is Modo that I use any better with their upgrades. Nope. The Foundry aren't piling on the new stuff. It's more about incrementally refining and enhancing things over 3 releases per year rather than dropping everything in one hit. I'm into modelling so the last few versions have focussed a lot on modelling improvements so I'm generally happy. Stability with Modo isn't really an issue any more and it's generally very stable. Not as stable as C4D but a long way from the crash fest it used to be. This means I won't be buying myself a copy of R20 Prime. I can afford it but since there's no updated UV tools, no volume modelling and no Physical renderer I'll be hanging to my money. Plus I can't believe it, but to get Prorender I would need to buy the Studio edition (as per MAXON's product comparison page). Ludicrous!!

 

Enjoy R20 everyone :)

 

Nigel / 3DKiwi

 

 

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Nigel, I agree about the VDB and Prorender but I guess that's the price for being way up in the cheap seats. I really thought this would be THE ONE with core and UV update hence one of the reason why I came back with Prime.  I will keep this version,R20 as the cost of MSA will nearly get me two years worth of Houdini Indie updates

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I'll probably get R20 but I'd like to see what Maya is offering first. I've been with C4D since R12 and the last 3 or 4 releases have had me on the fence and I've stuck with it. But the price difference of either sticking with the MSA (which feels like a subscription, whether or not it really is) is less than a day rate in yearly cost difference to Maya. Maya just seems more practical in that almost every object in 3D needs UVs and having Unfold3D in Maya is nice. Models need to be rigged, and the Quick Rig is nice. I have been doing "motion graphics" for 15 years, and still I have had way more jobs ask for, say, a dog running through a field -- than "a weird blob thing that morphs into slug that morphs into a geometric shape, but to a beat!" Maybe my clients aren't high end enough. 

 

HAVING SAID THAT... The main app killer for me here is the CAD importer. That alone is worth the price of admission for me personally, and that is the most practical useful thing on the planet. So you got me for another year MAXON!

Edited by connartist
I left out the nice part

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3 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

 Plus I can't believe it, but to get Prorender I would need to buy the Studio edition (as per MAXON's product comparison page). Ludicrous!!
 

Nigel / 3DKiwi

 

Yes, noticed that as well. If that is true, it's a rather sad state of affairs - in particular seeing that Maya, Blender, and Max get a fully featured ProRender for... free.

 

I really think MAXON's management is making a mistake with this: if it were integrated in all the other editions it would draw some interest, and more importantly, more C4D users would take ProRender more seriously as an rendering alternative.

 

But if it's only made available to Studio users? Really? What is the point? You either push your new render engine to ALL your users, or you risk having your beautiful new render engine adopted by a small percentage of users. Open it up to everyone. It's not as if ProRender is a unique key feature: all the rival applications already sport more advanced render engines at this point. AND have free access to ProRender. Reserving it to your "elite" users is merely petty attitude, and in my opinion indefensible.

 

That said, I can't see this being true! ESPECIALLY the Visualize edition would benefit from ProRender. If it IS true, and it is not a mistake, then I am dumbfounded by that decision. It makes no sense at all the way I see it, and is just plain silly.

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15 minutes ago, hvanderwegen said:

 

Yes, noticed that as well. If that is true, it's a rather sad state of affairs - in particular seeing that Maya, Blender, and Max get a fully featured ProRender for... free.

 

I really think MAXON's management is making a mistake with this: if it were integrated in all the other editions it would draw some interest, and more importantly, more C4D users would take ProRender more seriously as an rendering alternative.

 

But if it's only made available to Studio users? Really? What is the point? You either push your new render engine to ALL your users, or you risk having your beautiful new render engine adopted by a small percentage of users. Open it up to everyone. It's not as if ProRender is a unique key feature: all the rival applications already sport more advanced render engines at this point. AND have free access to ProRender. Reserving it to your "elite" users is merely petty attitude, and in my opinion indefensible.

 

That said, I can't see this being true! ESPECIALLY the Visualize edition would benefit from ProRender. If it IS true, and it is not a mistake, then I am dumbfounded by that decision. It makes no sense at all the way I see it, and is just plain silly.

completely agree. 

 

tbh, i have a hard time understanding the reasons behind a lot of maxons decisions. 

for instance i don't understand why character animation isn't given a much higher priority. c4d could easily attract a lot of maya users who are obviously sick of autodesk as a company. in the past two years i talked to a bunch of freelancers and small studio owners who are using maya and they were highly interested in c4d. those people won't hop on the c4d wagon because it has prorender now. and yet r20 hasn't a single feature dedicated to CA. 

 

while fields are obviously awesome and powerful and i look forward to using it i would easily trade that feature instantly if MAXON overhauled the priority system for instance. i don't know what kind of work others do, but complex mograph setups maybe make 2% of my income. (yes i know it's not only good for this kind of stuff ;) )

 

i'd certainly appreciate a release that's purely focussed on fixing the essentials that make everyday work more efficient, without ANY eyecandy headline feature. what do we all do all day? we deal with UVs, we rig, we fix priority issues, we model, we animate, we texture. in all these areas there's things where c4d is behind the competition. how about UDIM support? how about modern UV tools? how about a system to easily store and access poses? how about properly working PSDs? the list goes on.... those are the things that would speed up my everyday work. and i believe that holds true for many others. 

 

don't get me wrong, i really like the features of r20, it's certainly cool stuff. 

 

the one thing that could really speed up my everyday work for instance is the CAD import. but I'll have to try it to see if it can hold up with the results i get from step file conversions with MOI. the one issue i do have with MOI is that it runs out of memory if the cad files are too complex. i usually ask the supplier then if they can split the files up into several parts for me, but that isn't a workflow that's sustainable over a longer time period. so i was thinking about getting a copy of rhino to split them up by myself. now if c4ds CAD import could handle very complex cad files while producing valid geometry that has no interpretation issues i could save those 600€ i was about to spend on rhino. i'll certainly wait until next month now, to see if c4ds CAD import is a workable solution for me.

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6 minutes ago, everfresh said:

i don't understand why character animation isn't given a much higher priority. c4d could easily attract a lot of maya users who are obviously sick of autodesk as a company. in the past two years i talked to a bunch of freelancers and small studio owners who are using maya and they were highly interested in c4d. those people won't hop on the c4d wagon because it has prorender now. and yet r20 hasn't a single feature dedicated to CA. 

Such a shame MAXON did this, as this could have been a good opportunity to get more character atists on board, now that isnt going to happen, but infact could push the small number of character artists they had away.  We will soon see over the next month as we still dont know what improvements have been made to the existing tools.  At the moment we have a list of additions, not enhancements.  For me its added injury to insult that not only has R20 nothing to offer me, but its £100 more expensive than last year, bad move IMHO.  

 

Dan

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  • 7 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

    Any tutorials on material nodes?  Now, using a node is pretty straight forward,  What I want to understand is a deeper understanding of how to break down a desired effect into a design approach with the nodal system.  A lot of times, the tutorials go as follows: Connect A to B to C,D, and E and then back to D with a side connect to G and back to F and viola you have aged copper with rusty edges.  Okay.....so how do you know to start with A?  How did you even know that nodes B to G were required?

     

    That is the type of training I am looking for - how to build that logic and a few design approaches. 

     

    Thanks,

    Dave

     

    Of course, but it will take time :)


    Free C4D trainings from MAXON professional on our youtube channel

     

    https://www.youtube.com/c4dcafe

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    The core is cumming so just chill.

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    I'm very happy with the release. With the new Nodal features, VDB, Fields, Cloner improvements and deep and easy Alembic integration I see a big foundation built for future feature implementations.

     

    These cornerstones are important and open many new possibilities. VDB can be used for fluid sim for example, the Cloner enhancement for other performance improvements like particles maybe, the Fields can be a basis for a new Particle System, the Node UI for nodal animation in XPresso2. Lots of great stuff to come I'm sure.

     

    To me, the Node Editor implementation is the most pleasing and smartest I have seen so far. And with Layers, the UberShader and Assets you get best of both worlds.

     

    Heck, MAXON built about 150 Material Nodes to begin with.

     

    The VDB Mesher seems to produce more pleasing results than the XP4 OpenVDBMesher and is more deeply integrated in C4Ds architecture. This is a huge modeling feature in my opinion, close to MeshFusion. I'm looking forward to see if the primitives and other modeling tools in the new core have any performance improvements.

     

    I would have loved to see XPresso2 with these Nodes and the Asset toolset but at least we should know about how awesome it could be in one of the next releases. MAXON already delivered great previous releases with features like Takes, Voronoi Fracture, Poly Reduction, Modeling Core, Knife tools, LOD, Viewport enhancements, new Media Core, Pro Render, SDK etc. so its understandable that not everything can be done at once.

     

    C4D's architecture is very solid and if MAXON does something, they do it right in my opinion.

     

    btw for UV Mapping I highly recommend Seamilar. I have modified it's dialog UV dialog box with all the relevant UV buttons and integrated it into a Layout that it works like a native tool.

     

    If that is not sufficient, there is 3D-Coat. For 3D Texturing, there is Substance Painter.

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    My first post here) But I think I have something to say. 
    We all want modeling improvements, UV, BP.... I'm working in gamedev studio and this improvements means a lot for me! 
    But to be honest, don't be so rude with MAXON =) I used Modo and Blender, also always comparing features in c4d and max/maya with my colleagues at work. 
    And we have a lot of things to be proud for. Few examples- BEST bevel ever. I saw those crazy mitering options in complex areas in onther softwares.... It's just horrible! For me as hardsurface modeler it's HUGE advantage. Also I was shocking when I realized, that other softwares can't slide and copy edges along the N-gons. I didn't realized how good edge slide working in c4d before I tried other softwares. Also our object manager... I think it's the best thing on market. Our parent-children relationships with deformers and generators... abbility to group objects in Nulls and apply deformers to this Null and not to all objects... it costs a lot.

     

    So I can write a big poem about what we have better and what we should be proud. But yeah, we still have a lot to improve. 
    I want to believe that MAXON working on new modeling tools and UV (I purchased RizomUV, but would like to have native UV solution for all my purposes)
    And I believe if they realy do, then it will be so damn good!!! But we really need to know more about our future. No need to tell us exact feature, but be more open with customers.

    Less than month ago I wrote on the Blender forum and showed them comparison  screens of bevel mitering in Blender and Cinema. And I got response after a few hours from the developer! They told that it's good request and the will try to implement this till 2.8 release candidate(this autumn)
    Also I wrote 3 or 4 years ago to MAXON with one request- export selected. I get no response and it came to us only last year. And only for fbx. And I already had plugin, that can do it for all file formats. 

     

    MAXON's developers deserve big love, coz they making their job very good. But some marketing decisions leave much to be desired. 
    For example all other softwares already have indie license, or even free non-commercial licenses, or cheap monthly subscription... My studio bought me c4d, but I can't afford to buy so expensive software for home. Coz at home I'm working on my personal projects for portfolio and don't get paid for this.

     

    I would like to pay some monthly subscription to be able to use c4d for my non commercial works, but I cant. There is a lot of guys like me, but MAXON force us to use cracked versions, or switch to other softwares.

    We can use free Blender, we can use free full featured student version of Maya without any student ID, Modo indie costs 34$ per year!!!! (on the steam with regional price for my country), Houdini 269$ per year.... What should I do? I love Cinema 4D with all my soul, but
    there is more reasons to use any other software for personal work till the MAXON's sale politics still the same. While my employer pays for my software at work it doesn't matter for me, but I need to grow as an artist at my free time. 

    I still love Cinema4D and hoping for bright future.  

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