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Visionnext

3rd party render engines 2019

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First of all, I want some constructive discussion and not a war :)

 

At the moment I'm using Vray 3.6, but with the transfer of Vray for C4D to Chaosgroup, I think about alternatives.

I render characters (skin, hair) and mainly stills. So far I followed @Rectro tips & tricks and used the alSurface Shader in Vray for skin, which delivers quite good results out of the box.

So, criteria for me are

- Skin & Hair

- Node based material

- Integration in C4D

- Maturity & future-proof

- Licensing model (perpetual versus rental)

 

I love to her about your longtime experience and your pros and cons about the render engines you use.

I plan to get a new gear in 2019 and probably change the render engine latest with R21.

 

Thanks in advance and a Happy New Year to all of you and your families.

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18 minutes ago, Visionnext said:

First of all, I want some constructive discussion and not a war :)

 

At the moment I'm using Vray 3.6, but with the transfer of Vray for C4D to Chaosgroup, I think about alternatives.

I render characters (skin, hair) and mainly stills. So far I followed @Rectro tips & tricks and used the alSurface Shader in Vray for skin, which delivers quite good results out of the box.

So, criteria for me are

- Skin & Hair

- Node based material

- Integration in C4D

- Maturity & future-proof

- Licensing model (perpetual versus rental)

 

I love to her about your longtime experience and your pros and cons about the render engines you use.

I plan to get a new gear in 2019 and probably change the render engine latest with R21.

 

Thanks in advance and a Happy New Year to all of you and your families.

Hi there.

 

I dont have long term experience with other render engines, but as you know Im in the same boat as you and for the same reasons.  So far Corona has the fastest hair rendering, but the skin and micro displacement is not on par with Vray, but very close.    Also the relevance to this is the fact that they have confirmed that it will go rental only.  The only alternative at the moment iv found is Redshift.  its very fast, easy to learn, and has a nice node base system, even on a older Graphics card GTX 780.  The better skin is within the urber shader settings for the latest material and the dedicated skin material is older than the urber material.  I found the urber material is more like the Skin mtl within vray, it makes you work very hard to get any reasonable results.  I posted on Redshift forum asking about this and I was told the Urber material is based on Alsurface, I concur to think that its not in the results I get, but maybe how its organized in the UI.  A tell tell sign as to if a render engine is good at skin is when you do a deep search online for examples and yet do not get that wow factor that you may get with the ALsurface. Video training on skin can be fast forwarded to the end to see the results, non come close to AL surface despite their best efforts. Im working on a new character right now and ALsurface just can't be beaten in terms of results and time spent setting it up IMHO.

 

Redshift is the one to try but in the week I tried it, and I mean a solid 5 hours a day week long I didn't get to the destination I was aiming for.  Maybe when Prorender gets more advanced this maybe the way forward but for now iv found nothing that touches Vray in terms of Skin and hair offerings.  If I find a solution I will contact you directly and let you know.

 

Dan

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as a redshift user i'd say you can't go wrong with redshift ;)

 

regarding the skin i think i get what @Rectro is saying, but some of the renders you can find online are quite good, at least in my opinion.

this one here for instance:

https://www.behance.net/gallery/60226275/realistic-face-redshift

 

redshift can  be a bit tricky to learn though at first, some settings are not really straight forward and there's a lot of them to fiddle with.

 

dan, can you post an example of what level you're trying to achieve?

 

 

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2 hours ago, everfresh said:

as a redshift user i'd say you can't go wrong with redshift ;)

 

regarding the skin i think i get what @Rectro is saying, but some of the renders you can find online are quite good, at least in my opinion.

this one here for instance:

https://www.behance.net/gallery/60226275/realistic-face-redshift

 

redshift can  be a bit tricky to learn though at first, some settings are not really straight forward and there's a lot of them to fiddle with.

 

dan, can you post an example of what level you're trying to achieve?

 

 

I will find some later on.  My Tyrion Lannister I ran through it and just could not get the same result no matter what I did but by then I came to the conclusion that even if I did get the same result the hours and tweaking it would taken me was enough for me to avoid using it as each character has to be set up slightly different. 

 

Best sources are the ones that have dedicated tests done to production quality.  http://www.wikihuman.org/index.php/off-topic/the-alsurface-shader-on-the-wikihuman-data/

During my tests a while back I found the ALsurface did not bleed out to the lip edges, or eyes, and it mixed with the diffuse colour without losing any colour depth.  I think this is where things can change for other solutions, it seems to either places the diffuse colour on top of the SSS or too far behind it so it looks like plastic.  In the example below your notice how ALsurface retains the diffuse colour, the shadows are not lost, and there is a nice glow of red in the shadows.  These are not perfect examples but your see how even comparing to Vray own SSS2 ALsurface pushes ahead.

 

In the example you posted in the link you see in order to get the nice back scatter the front of the face has the "light bulb" effect, the diffuse colour from the texture is blown out by the SSS.  Bring the radius down for the front scattering you lose the back scatter so you turn up the rim light which blows out the back of the head.  To compensate your need precise control maps such as SSS amount, reflection amount and gloss but its alot of messing about to get a second rate result to Alsurface.  With ALsurface there is no need, just one single map in the diffuse channel gets you the best part there, then the additional maps adds to the effect.  The downside  to all of this is render time, Alsurface is slower.

 

In this link your see the results that Alsurface can offer, this is what we want from another render engine.

https://www.chaosgroup.com/blog/v-rays-implementation-of-the-anders-langlands-alsurface-shader

 

uQweCuh.jpg

 

Dan

 

 

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Cycles and Redshift are the best if you don't want subscription.  Cycles has a great way of doing displacement once you understand it.  Cycles also has in depth nodes that allow someone to do a lot, it has the best support for xparticles, and works with cpu, gpu, amd, nvidia.

 

Redshift can be fast if you use default lights.  If you use a geometry light it's going to slow to slower than Cycles.

 

They are both great.  If you can get a perpetual Octane licence somehow that is also a good render engine.

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Here is the Emily file for anyone that wants to try a direct comparison themselves.

 

Emily Head

 

With the different way each render engine does SSS the maps might have to be changed to get best results.  The maps are made after the scan anyway as far as I know.  It would be cool tech if they could do the SSS map with the scan.

 

 

Below is a link to a youtube of an Emily head someone made in Cycles.

Emily done in Cycles on Youtube

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On 12/30/2018 at 8:05 PM, Fastbee said:

Cycles and Redshift are the best if you don't want subscription.

subscriptions do suck (at least for guys like me that don't work for a studio)

I will have a closer look at Corona but in the meantime primarily on Cycles and native C4D

but Corona ain't bad, really like the Beta version haven't tried the latest demo, yet

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