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Kahuna

Keyshot quality renders from C4D

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Recently, I've been modelling in C4d, then exporting to Keyshot for final render, as I can't get that "OMG it's REAL!" quality from C4D.  Is it me that's doing something wrong, or is it the inherent differences in the two render engines that gives Keyshot the edge in product renders?

 

This is an example of something I rendered, which I just can't get in C4D, even if I use the same HDRI from Keyshot.

 

Thanks

 

<edit> The reason I'd rather not continue doing this is because it's a lot of work if I realise I've missed something and have to go back to C4D to rework the model, then reapply all the textures in Keyshot.

 

 

sfbpedal2.jpg

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If you show a picture of what you get in C4D maybe we can help tell you what you can do to make it look more like keyshot.

 

To give you a kick in the right direction I'd say use Physical, GI, and no AO.  All your reflection are going to need a realistic falloff with fresnel.

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Keyshot is without doubt a superb renderer and sits in its own place at the top when it comes to product shots.  Its sheer simplicity and speed makes life easy, but comes at a huge cost.  I cant see why you wouldn't get close results in C4D physical render, its just times with be significantly longer.

 

As Fastbee said show us a render in C4D physical using same HDR map and scene set up.  It you use a PBR material set up it should yield good results.  If you own Keyshot already then stay with it, its a rather expensive render engine so why settle with C4D own engine after shedding that kind of money out?  I have keyshot for Zbrush at much cheaper option and can run my work from C4D through Zbrush to Keyshot, its not too much hassle to get the results I want but as it happens Vray, or Redshift can do them kind of shots with ease too.

 

Dan

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Modelling in Cinema and rendering in KS is a very expensive way of doing things, and I'd personally rather use a different engine inside Cinema (Corona for example). But if it works for you and (you already have a copy of KS) then that's fine. 

 

It shouldn't be a lot of work though - as there is a C4d to KS bridge plugin isn't there? That should allow live linking of your model if i'm not mistaken. You shouldn't have to re-do it each time there's a modification.

 

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  • Thanks for the replies gentlemen.  I wonder if one of the mistakes I've been making is using AO all the time.  I just add it as a matter of course when rendering.

     

    As far as updating KS from C4D using the bridge plugin, I assumed that it would reset all the materials in Keyshot, instead of just the geometry.  I'll try it later.  

     

    In terms of materials, I either just use the built-in C4D materials, or create my own, and use legacy reflections in the reflectance channel, or modify them using GSG TopCoat (I also use GSG HDRI Studio Rig all the time).  Maybe I'm doing something wrong there as well.

     

    Yes, I'm lucky to have Keyshot as well as C4D.  I inherited the product visualisation tasks after the last guy left.  The bosses used to indulge him, so any software he asked for, he got.

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  • Ok, I can confirm that updating the KS scene from C4D via the bridge only updates the geometry, not the materials.  That's a very pleasant surprise.

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  • Here's the same model with slightly different materials (obviously...duh), in C4D with very high Phys settings, but no AO.  To my eye, the KS version just looks "real", whereas the C4D render looks exactly like what it is - a render.

     

    Going back to a comment earlier, should I not be using AO all the time, and if not, why? Are there only certain circumstances where it's appropriate?

     

     

    sfbpedalc4d.jpg

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    if you're using GI you don't need AO, GI does the occlusion by itself.

     

    your render looks like a render because the lighting isn't very good and the materials lack realism. your metal is a bit too shiny, you could introduce a little roughness and also break it up with tiny scratches and slight variation in reflectivity and roughness with a grunge map.. even the newest product has been touched (somebody has unpacked it, right?), has dust on it, this all results in variation of the surface. touch a chrome button with your finger, even when your hands are freakishly clean, your fingers will leave a print on the surface, making it slightly more dull in that area. slide a product like that out of it's box and the tiny specs of dust between the products surface and the packagings surface will result in microscopic scratches. details like these you don't really notice consciously (if applied subtile enough), but it makes a huge difference. i also do a lot product renders of audio products, and i never apply a perfectly clean material to anything. everything has variation in real life, there's no such thing as a perfectly even surface.

     

    and btw, the keyshot render also looks like a render, because it lacks those details.

     

    keyshot is made that everything looks quite good out of the box, making renders in a full package like c4d is a bit more complicated and requires some deeper knowledge.

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    6 hours ago, Kahuna said:

    Here's the same model with slightly different materials (obviously...duh), in C4D with very high Phys settings, but no AO.  To my eye, the KS version just looks "real", whereas the C4D render looks exactly like what it is - a render.

     

    Going back to a comment earlier, should I not be using AO all the time, and if not, why? Are there only certain circumstances where it's appropriate?

     

     

    sfbpedalc4d.jpg

    If you want the scene to be physically accurate and you are using GI you should not use AO.  If you think it looks better go ahead and use AO.  In this case if you are using AO in keyshot you should use ao in c4d, but make sure the settings for ao are right.

     

    For the picture it looks like you have sss on the main plastic body.  The color looks different even if it is the same.  This happens between render engines where the color looks different even though it's the same.  It looks like keyshot scene is ignoring the reflection from the floor and instead showing the HDRI in the reflection.  If you put a tag on the floor in the c4d scene to get the floor to not show in the reflection to could look closer.  It could also be that C4D mirrors the HDRI.  I'm not sure why it does this backward of every other render engine, but you can make the U tiling -1 to get it un-mirrored.

     

    I have a simpler c4d scene I made that has a realistic base reflective mat and a metal.  Need to throw in your own hdri.  C4D is not a super accurate render engine as it's not a raytracer unless you use Prorender.  If you want something that looks more like keyshot and is in c4d I'd go with Cycles, Redshift, or Octane.  In C4D yes you could get it to look very close to Keyshot, but you would need a lot of knowledge about the engine and have to put those in manually.  In Cycles, Redshift, and Octane it's more automatic.

     

    c4d keyshot like scene.zip

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    Here is a example with the scene I made.

     

    C4D

    1170489919_c4dkeyshotlikescenec4d.thumb.jpg.b58728cd0e2e0abb18449185cc68f141.jpg

     

    Cycles

    982145793_c4dkeyshotlikescenecycles.thumb.jpg.1f6e0997ce5045eef46fb0005d566af3.jpg

     

    It seems C4D is clamping the HDRI reflections pretty hard.

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  • Thanks again for the replies, and for highlighting my lack of knowledge :wackywink:

     

    I don't suppose you could reshare the C4D file with the assets could you?  The file doesn't have the materials, and I'd like to see how they are created.

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    Hi,

     

    It can be done easily in C4D with same result, and even better, your knowledge is most important factor here, not render engine.

     

    Cheers,

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