Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

[Pinin 1]

1 hour ago, Hrvoje said:

Afaik, the problem with shipping updates to perpetual license is not allowed by law if it contains new features, except bugfixes (maybe I am mistaken), therefore it requires version increase and some sort of payment/fee. For subscription this limitation doesn't exist. For example, that means you could get more than one version update in a year by being a subscriber but not as perpetual license owner due to legal implications. Rest assured that MAXON is looking not to cause damage to it's customers, therefore the choice of words there in that part of faq simply reflects that until the solution which will be satisfactory to all is found

 

Really? explain Windows updates then... some have new features.

[Hrvoje 1,000,000]

MS is US company, MAXON isn't and is subject to German and EU laws

[Unstable 36]

50 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

So why the delay in getting this important information out?  Honestly, this is the worst handled roll-out of any release ever and add to that the much longer message on how MAXON is making C4D for "the world" but (by your own admission) we just haven't worked out how to handle existing customers yet.  

 

Honestly, do you find that approach acceptable?

 

Was MAXON waiting to hear how their existing customer base would react to the news before they decide on the pricing of upgrades to perpetual licenses?  If so, then I hope the message is loud and clear that we are not happy.

 

This is how I am processing this:  Given that R21 is pretty much a "meh" release, then simply let it go.  Do not upgrade...do not subscribe.  This means NO INCOME TO MAXON.  There is no compelling reason why I would need to move into R21 given that you are doing nothing to compel me to do so as a Studio owner.  The costs are the same but I either lose Cineversity or I lose a perpetual license.  The new features certainly are not a huge attraction.  So why do anything?  In the absence of any other information from MAXON, then doing nothing is in my best interests.  Here is why:

 

If there is something I need in R21 or a future release for a short project, then subscribe for 1 or 2 months only.   Again, loss of revenue to MAXON.  Wait a few years (and I mean many years) and set aside the money I would have used for an MSA and then make a decision on whether or not I buy a perpetual license of a future version at your reduced price.  Of course, if all future releases follow the Adobe model and are complete rubbish, then I have lost nothing....but MAXON has lost revenue. 

 

If the price of a perpetual license increases or you no longer offer them, then I am forced into the subscription plan --- but I wold have ended up there anyway had I continued to be a loyal supporter in all those years.    Again, no loss to me (in fact, I save a ton of money) but a loss of revenue to MAXON

 

What really makes this the most bone-headed, poorly thought out release ever is that MAXON has no information on how to handle existing customers.  All you tell us is to use the perpetual license...but based on the arguments above, it is advantageous for us NOT to jump into that model.  No matter what version you have now, costs go up or your loose service (ability to own your software or Cineversity).

 

So doing nothing is the best choice.   Is this really 3D for the whole world?  Is this really what you want?

 

Bring back the MSA with Cineversity for the perpetual license holder.  It's bad enough you are going to make me re-login every two weeks!

 

Dave

 

I agree with much of what you said. I've been looking into alternative solutions and check the renewal price for Cineversity. It's $95 for yearly renewal, which means it's better to pay that and stay in R20 for me. As you stated, if I want to use a future release, I'll pay for a month or two, but I don't really see that happening .

 

 

 

 

[Urbandisplay 0]

22 minutes ago, Pinin said:

Someone can deny this for existing users ?

 

Studio on MSA to Subscription: pay slighty more, loose perpetual license.

Studio on MSA to continue perpetual: loose Cineversity, 14 day web check, unclear price for upgrades…

Prime, Broadcast etc, get perpetual Studio R21 w 14 day web check, pay much more for next upgrades.

 

“Perpetual” now come with a caveat, it needs to phone home every 14 days.
So it is perpetual if MAXON has the server working…i remind that Autodesk just stopped serving their "perpetual" software more than 3 years old.

 

Out of this mess the only ones that seem to apparently win seem those that are new to the game that have a rent price significantly better than Max or Maya… excluding those that can have Max and Maya Indie.

 

cross posted from cgsociety.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That seems all true I'm afraid. Currently in the situation where I've just upgraded from Visualize to Studio with an MSA in March and just had an email confirming all this from the software supplier.. 

Seems my supplier is even thicker because they say you won't even have an option to upgrade a perpetual license in future unless you get subscription. Might be confusing for them as well or they are after my money ... 

 

Think there will be upgrades possible just like before only we need to wait for all the information to come through..

Upgrade might be cheaper because the overall price of a perpetual has dropped and you won't have to pay for cineversity... .. you never know, haha.. 

 

BTW the Indie Max and Maya is a trial and only available in some continents plus the next year you'd pay the full price (that's €1680 in Netherlands), but it's not even available in Europe.

[srek 108]

21 minutes ago, Hrvoje said:

MS is US company, MAXON isn't and is subject to German and EU laws

That is true, but when selling in the US MAXON has to obey US laws. On the other hand MS is so much bigger and differently set up that maybe the can and do afford to have an own department handling this stuff. Given the tax avoidance structures many huge technology ompanies have, they might be able to skirt around this anyway. For a much smaller company like MAXON this is a quite different thing.

[lieber 8]

Must say that I am having troubles finding features in R21. I find that very disturbing, not the license talk at all. I could live with subscription, but not for empty release

hats of to @Hrvoje and @Igor, you are really good guys and trying your best to defend  MAXON, but something is seriously wrong. R 21 is empty. nothing. zero. It is a bug fix release from my POV. I am truly disappointed and I think all this new core talk is just bu***it talk. I do struggle with Houdini but this benefit of the doubt that MAXON can deliver has reached a point where I simply lost faith. Will check Blender also since some argued that it matured. If there was Cafe for Houdini I would leave and never look back. Will stay on R20, I guess that is last upgrade for me

 

 

[hikarubr 33]

MAXON really needs to go back to the drawing board. The whole "3D for the Whole World" looks like a farce considering that:

 

1) Studio users will have to pay more than they paid for the MSA

2) Prime and Bodypaint users will have to pay THREE TIMES more than they were paying for their MSA.

3) Disingenuous pricing: the $59 per month sub is not really that, but a $720 annual fee.

4) The annual fee is almost THREE TIMES more expensive than Maya and Max Indie ($250)

5) People don't like Autodesk but now that MAXON is acting like them, Autodesk becomes an option. 

6) Cinema 4D R21 is very weak in features, so I don't see why people would move from R20. 

7) The above fact makes me think that MAXON will soon kill the perpetual license as they realize the old users are not migrating (Autodesk did that). 

8) Finally, the perpetual license is not really perpetual anymore, with a silly 14-day internet activation. 

 

How to fix this? My suggestions:

 

1) CInema4D Indie version for $20 per month (like Octane). Really monthly, not upfront.

2) Keep the perpetual license and the MSA for existing users, without silly 14-day activation. But they only get the upgrades and new features annually. 

3) Subscription-to-perpetual option for new users. Something like: After 3 years of subscription, if you stop, you get the current perpetual license. 

 

 

Otherwise I think we will see BOTH the existing users AND the new users migrating to Maya and Blender.

I teach 3D Animation at the University level. At this price point, with Maya and Max Indie a reality, it's really hard to recommend Cinema 4D for my students.

 

Keep in mind that I LOVE Cinema 4D, but this Adobe-fication of MAXON is really a mistake. 

[hikarubr 33]

14 minutes ago, Urbandisplay said:

BTW the Indie Max and Maya is a trial and only available in some continents plus the next year you'd pay the full price (that's €1680 in Netherlands), but it's not even available in Europe.

 

That's not true. It is indeed a trial before the rolling out for other regions, but you won't have to pay the full price after one year.

Autodesk explained that.

You only have to turn-off auto-renewal and them apply for a new indie license each year.

[FRick 0]

2 hours ago, Hrvoje said:

Seems that there are mixed opinions about the upcoming change. I don't know much about the intricate details regarding how MSA customers or perpetual license owners will benefit from this change, however, I would advise that we all wait for proper detailed information before starting bashing :)

Now, there are couple of things to be aware of:

 

1. Now you are able to buy C4D easily from anywhere. That was not the case before and is something that didn't affect people in the West much, but it sure did elsewhere. I recall that buying through my local distributor was a nightmare, with much larger price and long waiting period. That is gone now

 

2. Subscription will obviously provide the opportunity for much more people that are interested in C4D to actually use it on shorter term basis if needed.

 

3. The cost of C4D is much lower now, isn't it?

 

4. Bundling all editions into one version is huge benefit. This coupled with online shop, online help, online delivery simply leads to more development time for features

 

5. Perpetual license is still here and you still have the option to own it?

 

6. Redshift bundle is really good offer

 

7. I am bit tired of it, and answered it in topics and many private messages - Adobe is not buying C4D

 

1. Never had that trouble you speak off with design Express. 

2. That's a really silly way of trying to find ways to white-knight this move by MAXON.

3. No it isn't. It's gotten more expensive. You need to read past the PR.

4. Don't care much as I've always been a Studio user since V8, but yes, all those different versions never made sense to me. How many photoshop versions are there anyway?

5. At the cost of 3567 Euro with, as it seems, no updates (legal gets in the way) no Cineversity and it will disappear most likely in 2 years anyway (makes most sense) leaving subscriptions only behind.

6. Nope it isn't, not with the inflated costs, the loss of owning your copy, the lack of anything worthwhile in this update (no-one needs this update) and a 2 weekly server check from big brother MAXON.

7. It's not so strange: ex Adobe guy at the wheel and we get Adobe-like™ subscriptions on our roof. Up next, you're told you are not allowed to use this or that version anymore. I can see why people say/write this. Doubt they really believe it but yeah MAXON joined the big bad boys club. Adobe, Autodesk, MAXON. Never thought I see those 3 in one line.

 

Ugh I'm going to wash my hands...

[everfresh 509]

5 minutes ago, lieber said:

Must say that I am having troubles finding features in R21. I find that very disturbing, not the license talk at all. I could live with subscription, but not for empty release

hats of to @Hrvoje and @Igor, you are really good guys and trying your best to defend  MAXON, but something is seriously wrong. R 21 is empty. nothing. zero. It is a bug fix release from my POV. I am truly disappointed and I think all this new core talk is just bu***it talk. I do struggle with Houdini but this benefit of the doubt that MAXON can deliver has reached a point where I simply lost faith. Will check Blender also since some argued that it matured. If there was Cafe for Houdini I would leave and never look back. Will stay on R20, I guess that is last upgrade for me

 

 

i'd rather pay for proper bug fixes and workflow enhancements that speed up my daily work over fancy features i use maybe once a year. copy and paste polys alone saves tons of time, timeline is much faster, autoweights are great. and those are things i'm in daily contact with. of the r20 features i used fields, but i've not once had proper use for volumes up to now tbh. maybe it's just me, but i don't mind NOT having fancy features and instead being able to work much faster.

[Macgyver 18]

2 hours ago, Hrvoje said:

Seems that there are mixed opinions about the upcoming change. I don't know much about the intricate details regarding how MSA customers or perpetual license owners will benefit from this change, however, I would advise that we all wait for proper detailed information before starting bashing :)

Now, there are couple of things to be aware of:

 

1. Now you are able to buy C4D easily from anywhere. That was not the case before and is something that didn't affect people in the West much, but it sure did elsewhere. I recall that buying through my local distributor was a nightmare, with much larger price and long waiting period. That is gone now

 

2. Subscription will obviously provide the opportunity for much more people that are interested in C4D to actually use it on shorter term basis if needed.

 

3. The cost of C4D is much lower now, isn't it?

 

4. Bundling all editions into one version is huge benefit. This coupled with online shop, online help, online delivery simply leads to more development time for features

 

5. Perpetual license is still here and you still have the option to own it?

 

6. Redshift bundle is really good offer

 

7. I am bit tired of it, and answered it in topics and many private messages - Adobe is not buying C4D

Didn’t you read the thread? 

[shadd 4]

I am in a slightly better place after reading the FAQ section on MAXON's site about what happens to existing MSA customers and I recommend everyone read it if they haven't. Having just purchased Studio (for myself) the first time in May I was initially really upset with the subscription model. I personally don't care about having a perpetual license (it's nice, don't get me wrong) I was more concerned that my initial investment was for nothing. Assuming MAXON doesn't drop the ball with discounts for existing MSA customers I will be moderately satisfied.

 

With all that said...I am a bit disappointed in the feature list and was hoping for more. I was REALLY hoping Redshift would be included in the MSA. Considering it sounds like I will be getting R21 at a steep discount/free it makes it a bit easier to swallow. It sounds like a lot of the core has been updated, and hopefully more significant changes can happen now.

 

One last thing. This subscription model does make Cinema 4d Studio cheaper which I am all for, but I suspect another reason for the change is to make it at least somewhat harder to pirate.