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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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1 hour ago, Igor said:

...Do you realize that one person is not the whole company? ...

No, I don´t think so.
But the impact of this one Marketing BS person is imense in a economy like ours.

See what Mr Shantanu Narayen has done with Adobe - Only a few developers left  under protest when he started his Cloud.

So the people under the hood are the same.

But from One Day to the Other Adobe was on a Microsoft-Level.

My opinion changed from one Moment to the other.

So - Yes, People are the same, but face of the company changes.

Till today MAXON was a company that was caring about users. Many of my proposals went into the App.

But now it´s the same like with all the others: No longterm strategy - Fast earned Money is the main target.

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Once the availability of Studio / Broadcast / Prime was an advantage, so that everyone could use it - 3D for the whole world (for the poor and the rich).

Today the missing of joice is told (with marketing bushwa) us to be 3D for the whole world.

Funny.

If there wouldn´t be all that pi... off users who are affected.

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As there's so much hate towards the licensing changes, I wanted to give a bit of an alternative perspective.

For me personally, the licensing changes are exactly what I hoped for. I'm currently on R20 Broadcast. Studio would have been nice, but dropping 3.5k just wasn't an option when I decided to get seriously into creating 3D stuff commercially.

 

I've bought an MSA for my upgrade to R21 and wanted to upgrade to Studio in 2020, which would have cost an additional €2.000. In September, I'm getting R21 with all the Studio features I've been missing for free - I'm saving 2k.

If rumors are true, I'm then going to get 2 years of upgrades (which are - at least for me - mandatory. Being on an old version isn't an option for me, due to compatibility reasons alone) for €1.000 - again - that's cheaper than the MSA would have been. 2023 onward I'm going to have to pay €700 per year - but I'm fine with that. It's really going to take some time until it's going to eat away the money I've saved from not having to upgrade to Studio.

 

I know people like me are the exception, I just wanted to shed some light from a more positive angle here. Yes, it would be fantastic if they offered an Indie option, but subscription based licensing is becoming the norm in the software market and it was only a question of time until MAXON would join the other companies.

 

Yes - feature-wise the update is weak - here's to hoping we'll get some nice features in the coming months. 

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Just to keep banging on the same nail ... do it like Adobe then.

 

£60/month = £720/year but I need to pay up-front. Do a contract like Adobe where I can sign this but choose to pay on a monthly basis. That will enable a lot more people to join now.

 

I have friends in Brazil who are learning Blender and they didn't even bothered with this, because £720 is like R$ 3,500 not counting all the taxes and sh*t we have there. That's a lot of money to pay up-front instead of around R$250+ monthly. If it's 3D for the world, it needs to take into consideration the currency exchange.

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22 minutes ago, stomich said:

As there's so much hate towards the licensing changes, I wanted to give a bit of an alternative perspective.

For me personally, the licensing changes are exactly what I hoped for. I'm currently on R20 Broadcast. Studio would have been nice, but dropping 3.5k just wasn't an option when I decided to get seriously into creating 3D stuff commercially.

 

I've bought an MSA for my upgrade to R21 and wanted to upgrade to Studio in 2020, which would have cost an additional €2.000. In September, I'm getting R21 with all the Studio features I've been missing for free - I'm saving 2k.

If rumors are true, I'm then going to get 2 years of upgrades (which are - at least for me - mandatory. Being on an old version isn't an option for me, due to compatibility reasons alone) for €1.000 - again - that's cheaper than the MSA would have been. 2023 onward I'm going to have to pay €700 per year - but I'm fine with that. It's really going to take some time until it's going to eat away the money I've saved from not having to upgrade to Studio.

 

I know people like me are the exception, I just wanted to shed some light from a more positive angle here. Yes, it would be fantastic if they offered an Indie option, but subscription based licensing is becoming the norm in the software market and it was only a question of time until MAXON would join the other companies.

 

Yes - feature-wise the update is weak - here's to hoping we'll get some nice features in the coming months. 

The subscription system is targeting people like you. Studio users like me are the real losers . 

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27 minutes ago, stomich said:

As there's so much hate towards the licensing changes, I wanted to give a bit of an alternative perspective.

For me personally, the licensing changes are exactly what I hoped for. I'm currently on R20 Broadcast. Studio would have been nice, but dropping 3.5k just wasn't an option when I decided to get seriously into creating 3D stuff commercially.

 

I've bought an MSA for my upgrade to R21 and wanted to upgrade to Studio in 2020, which would have cost an additional €2.000. In September, I'm getting R21 with all the Studio features I've been missing for free - I'm saving 2k.

If rumors are true, I'm then going to get 2 years of upgrades (which are - at least for me - mandatory. Being on an old version isn't an option for me, due to compatibility reasons alone) for €1.000 - again - that's cheaper than the MSA would have been. 2023 onward I'm going to have to pay €700 per year - but I'm fine with that. It's really going to take some time until it's going to eat away the money I've saved from not having to upgrade to Studio.

 

I know people like me are the exception, I just wanted to shed some light from a more positive angle here. Yes, it would be fantastic if they offered an Indie option, but subscription based licensing is becoming the norm in the software market and it was only a question of time until MAXON would join the other companies.

 

Yes - feature-wise the update is weak - here's to hoping we'll get some nice features in the coming months. 

I will never understand this logic. If you can´t spend 3.5K for a perpetual license - Spare 70.00 a month and buy when you are completed. Or take a credit and pay back month by month - But OWN your license in the end. If you are able to pay the monthly fee, you should also be able to pay back the credit. I realy can´t understand why so many people are of the opinion "now (with subscription and dependence) they are able to use these tools they elsewise could never have". Subscription is nearby the same as taking credit - with the disadvantage that you loose the access to your work if you are unable to pay. And - in my Eyes the advantage is on the manufacturers site - no need to force development, as users are dependent.

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2 hours ago, Igor said:

This kind of mentally I simply don't understand. Do you realize that one person is not the whole company? We have so many passionate people, great working environment...we are great colleges and every one of us is determined to give you the best possible state of Cinema. We also feel angry, disappointed etc when things are not as we would like. The core of MAXON didn't change so MAXON still have heart and soul and that will only parish when we are gone but I doubt that will happen anytime soon...we want to deliver the best, but sometimes it's much more then just code and just making super cool features.

I love the program. Even R21 and it’s lackluster features. Lots of cool little adjustments here and there at UI level. But I resent the management for this poor communication and lack of consideration for the loyal customers. 

 

Hats off to the programmers, thumbs down to the management. 

 

And I can’t help but get disappointed when I see all the areas of the program that are lagging behind. Some cineversity tutorials make use of ZBrush UV master now...this tells how urgent the situation has become. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Raischub said:

I will never understand this logic. If you can´t spend 3.5K for a perpetual license - Spare 70.00 a month and buy when you are completed. Or take a credit and pay back month by month - But OWN your license in the end. If you are able to pay the monthly fee, you should also be able to pay back the credit. I realy can´t understand why so many people are of the opinion "now (with subscription and dependence) they are able to use these tools they elsewise could never have". Subscription is nearby the same as taking credit - with the disadvantage that you loose the access to your work if you are unable to pay. And - in my Eyes the advantage is on the manufacturers site - no need to force development, as users are dependent.

 

Sure, you're right about the option of financing it - but still, for new users it takes a long time (about 15 years or so) until the perpetual option is really cheaper than the subscription price.

 

I just don't care all that much about owning software, possibly because I come from a classical graphic design background and software subscriptions are a thing as long as I'm working commercially. I care about being able to use the latest tools when I need them.

 

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52 minutes ago, stomich said:

 

...Sure, you're right about the option of financing it - but still, for new users it takes a long time (about 15 years or so) until the perpetual option is really cheaper than the subscription price...

Not the truth.

The Subscription will be nearby 900 € a year.
The Perpetual of V20 = 3500 €. Even if you are willing to spend € 500 for Updates a year (as ist was in the last years):
If you spend 75 € a moth (900/12) you will spend fewer in less than EIGHT YEARS wirth Perpetual than with Subscription
Perpetual 3500 & 7yrs Updates (3500) = 7000€ vs. Subscription 75 € * 96 mth = 7200€ - very simple math.

To make the Math complete: After these 8 years - you can sell your Perpetual license (3500 €). With Subscriptiuon you own nothing.

In this case you used the Software 8 years and payed 3500 € (Cause you own a license worth 3500 €) = 36.45 mth.
With Subscription you simply payed 7200 € = 75 mth.

Means: Perpetual is HALF (!!!) the price at that point.
If you take in account, that you still OWN your 3500 € - license one can say it takes FOUR years to get on the same price level.
Truly a long time - But it´s simply not right, that renting is cheaper than buying.

During all that time you have a fallback solution. A license you own. With Subscription you have nothing in case of trouble.

Even no access to your work.

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Looks like I'll be staying on R20, the "benefit" they are offering to upgrade my studio MSA, then pay more for a subscription while losing my R21 perpetual makes no sense to me.  I'll see how things are going, and maybe I'll start a new subscription down the line...although as others have said.. the magic is definitely gone and I'm more likely to explore my numerous options.  If MAXON hadn't bought Redshift I'd be more likely to completely jump ship.  I would never have expected such a mess from MAXON.  I will say I didn't know about the weird Germany/EU law that prevents new features, so in that way I think it is a good move and it will be interesting to see what new features come out over the year.   I do appreciate C4D's stability above all else, so as long as that stays, they continue to improve performance, and some of these major things are worked out relatively soon I'll consider a sub.  Right now I can save my money for a new GPU or maybe even Houdini Indie. 

 

Mostly, I'm massively dissapointed in the R21 release.  Specifically, coming from Softimage and ICE, I'm especially dissapointed they still weren't able to modernize and upgrade Xpresso with the new nodes.  With Cinema-4D's new material nodes not able to smoothly work with xpresso, the software seems right now very disjointed.  I like the new material nodes a lot and I hope Redshift and others use them and the API is powerful.. will be nice, but one of the great things about Redshift using the xpresso node editor is the cool things you can do to integrate other objects and parameters in your scene.  Also, I know I'm impatient and I'm sure great things are coming, but as of yet, we haven't seen much benefit to Redshift being bought by MAXON in terms of their stated goal of "seamless" integration.  I hope Kostas is getting some help.   There are so many cool things that could be made compatible. 

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36 minutes ago, Raischub said:

Perpetual 3500 & 7yrs Updates (3500) = 7000€ vs. Subscription 75 € * 96 mth = 7200€ - very simple math.

 

 

Almost. You overestimated the subscription price (VAT is actually included in the 59,49 we pay in Germany) and ignored VAT for the MSA price (which is 550 now, not 500.)

So it's actually

 

Perpetual 3.500 + 7 years updates (7*650 = 4.550) = 8050 vs. Subscription 60 * 96 =  5.760

Know at how many years perpetual actually catches up? Fifty.

 

Perpetual:
3500 + 50*650 = 36.000

 

Subscription:

50*720 = 36.000

 

After your 51st year in the industry, you then safe €70 a year. Yay!

Most of us don't pay VAT, but the calculation stays the same.

 

I get it if people are annoyed because they don't own their software anymore, but there's no need to spread misinformation.

Still - I'm with you on the fact that having something that you can sell is better than owning nothing at the end - still, for my day to day work, it just doesn't matter enough to get upset.

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Wow....so even if I decide to buy a perpetual R21 license, that license is ONLY perpetual if I continually upgrade via new perpetual licenses.   Once I switch to subscription, my perpetual license fails to activate.  That is just wrong.  Also, I think someone said that the cost of the R21 perpetual license was 850 euro which is 15% more than the annual subscription price.  

 

So my fears are realized: there is a strong push to perpetual and R20 is the last truly permanent license you can own whose activation can never be tampered with by MAXON as it does not use their server activation routine (Note:  Should MAXON ever push out a "bug-fix" for R20 in the future....be careful as that could also include the requirement for server activation).

 

Sorry MAXON folks.  No matter what you want to tell yourself so you can sleep at night, if you can turn off my perpetual license for whatever reason, you have become Adobe.  It is as simple as that. 

 

Dave

 

 

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