Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
cinomadic

Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

Recommended Posts

It's the small pro users who will take the hit here - and I'm one of them.


The big studios tend to like these schemes - here's why:
Renting (subscribing) moves the expenditure from Capital expenditure - difficult to get financial approval for, requires long term planning, hard to measure return on investment etc - into Operational expenditure - easier to get approval for, easier to measure return on investment etc .

 

Imagine you're a studio head at a agency and you want to move 50 artists onto C4D.  Currently that's 50 x $3.5k = $175K investment. That is hard to get approval for - and you'll need to commit to it for x years to get a sufficient return on the investment.  Come Sept you'll be able to do it for 50 x $720 = $36k/ year. No long term investment required. Bargain!

 

If they move software and need to maintain one or two licences for backward compatability sometime the future - that's pocket change.

 

Sadly, it doesn't work like that if you're a one person studio.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MikeA said:

It's the small pro users who will take the hit here - and I'm one of them.


The big studios tend to like these schemes - here's why:
Renting (subscribing) moves the expenditure from Capital expenditure - difficult to get financial approval for, requires long term planning, hard to measure return on investment etc - into Operational expenditure - easier to get approval for, easier to measure return on investment etc .

 

Imagine you're a studio head at a agency and you want to move 50 artists onto C4D.  Currently that's 50 x $3.5k = $175K investment. That is hard to get approval for - and you'll need to commit to it for x years to get a sufficient return on the investment.  Come Sept you'll be able to do it for 50 x $720 = $36k/ year. No long term investment required. Bargain!

 

If they move software and need to maintain one or two licences for backward compatability sometime the future - that's pocket change.

 

Sadly, it doesn't work like that if you're a one person studio.

 

 

 

That's why "3D for the whole world" feels so misleading, in my opinion. Total marketing language.

 

--

 

I really hope the developers—and many others—that worked so hard to bring R21 (and all that came before) to light do not feel like the community is not appreciative of their efforts. We will never know how much has been sacrificed to get to this point, I'm sure. (Have there been missteps? Yes. But, has the intent to deliver the best possible package(s) always been there? I think so.)

 

Anyway...

 

I just don't like the direction I see this all going. Still feeling betrayed.

 

In my opinion, MODO went downhill with The Foundry's acquisition of Luxology. I'm having a similar sort of feeling with all of this.

 

I hate to have the negativity (in this thread) overshadow this release / announcement, but I can't help but wonder why people who have stayed somewhat silent, in the background, supporting MAXON (and related plugins, training, etc) are—finally—coming forward to share a little bit how they feel.   :306:

 

And the sad thing is... I don't know if they will really care. (Direction seems very focused on growth / new customers vs. existing customer base. Maybe I'm wrong. [???])  :164:

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-02 at 11.42.19 AM.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, maxwellv said:

In my opinion, MODO went downhill with The Foundry's acquisition of Luxology. I'm having a similar sort of feeling with all of this.

 

mmm, I don't agree. Things changed. While Brad and co were great at interacting with the user base, development was all over the place.  Stability has improved a lot in the last few versions and there now seems to be logical way forward / clear roadmap. The procedural modelling is really useful and something I use all the time now.

Obviously I've been watching this thread with interest. I always thought there were too many versions of Cinema 4D so consolidating into one version I totally agree with. My guess is MAXON fully expect to lose a few customers but that will be offset by making it easier for people to get into. For example, say I wanted to come back to Cinema 4D, no way would I pay US $3495 but US $720 for 12 months use is a lot more accessible to me.  Having to connect to the internet to validate my licence regularly isn't an issue in my opinion. Nothing unique in that. That said I would be totally pissed if I was a Cinema 4D user and especially if I had paid for a Studio version. That's essentially money down the drain.

Some random comments:

 

Glad I'm not running a Cinema 4D forum anymore!! 

 

Where is Cinema 4D up to with the rewritten core / faster object handling? Seems to me it still isn't finished yet as there's been no hype about faster object handling.

Still no new UV toolset. While R21 has some UV tool enhancements, UV editing hasn't changed much since 2003 (you read that right). One reason I jumped ship at R17 was I'd given up waiting for the UV toolset to be updated. 4 versions on / 4 years later it still hasn't surfaced.

Is it me or does R21 feel like a .5 version? Seems rather light on enhancements. Not sure I would be happy paying the hefty MSA price for what MAXON just served up with R21. Have to say some of the pre release hype from MAXON employees here and elsewhere now feels like they were bullshitting a bit. 

If I was MAXON I would have given users of the Studio version  with an active MSA a free year of Redshift as a sweetner. Studio users have always had a bit of a rough deal compared to other versions.

It was good to see the new MAXON CEO presenting at Siggraph. Also good to see him posting here. Big change from the previous management.

Anyway, hope you're all enjoying your 3D. I'm currently putting together the new Lego Harley Davidson motorcycle that came out recently. In addition to making the real Lego model I'm modelling the parts that I don't have already to make a digital version of it. Still riding my bike a lot.

 

Cheers

Nigel / 3DKiwi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting that for the last couple of pages in this thread, the major theme has been "so exactly what my options if I want to stay perpetual?" 

 

Amidst all that confusion, there have been NO posts from any MAXON employee.  We have not even heard from those employee's who run the forum (Igor last posted over 140 messages ago).  Maybe they are waiting for us to pass through the "storming" phase of change and calm down and enter the "norming" or acceptance phase of change before they show themselves again.   After all, we have more in common with an angry mob this week than the once peaceful lovers of C4D we used to be last week.  Heck, if I were them, I would stay away.

 

So....confusion reigns....tempers flare (including mine)....and MAXON is silent.  

 

But maybe...just maybe....our reaction just took them by surprise. 

 

They initially faced the angry mob and  tried to defend MAXON's position that subscriptions are great for "THE WHOLE WORLD" but the arguments kept coming - and when you do the math, they had nothing to defend themselves.   They drank the cool-aid that subscriptions  were just soooo game changing and soo amazing because it allowed everyone to get Studio.   Images of THE WHOLE WORLD using C4D Studio were just too exciting for them to ignore.  In that daze of 3D utopia that had been created at MAXON, they failed to realize that their existing customers, in particular their Studio customers, were NOT THE WHOLE WORLD.  We are the ones being cast aside, being asked to pay more than others to get the very same thing. 

 

We were simply left behind.

 

Never in their good-hearted imagination (and they do have good hearts) did it occur to them that to independent Studio owners, their entire proposal and rules on subscriptions and perpetual licenses makes them  - in fact - look like Adobe.  This has to be a shock to them because for years we kept asking "Will MAXON become like Adobe" and for years we heard the uniform cry in return "MAXON will never be like Adobe".  

 

Well....they have become Adobe.  They didn't know it but they did....and it shocks them to their very core.

 

"We were the good guys" they are saying to one another in surprise as the dream of "3D for the Whole world" starts to collapse on them for the money making sham it really is.  "How did we let this happen?" they ask in disbelief.

 

They now realize that they have also lost something as well in this whole debacle.   Their passions and values for Cinema 4D were once lock step in-tune with those of their customers - making C4D the most fun, stable and easy to use DCC software out there.  But now our values are different.  We are no longer excited about C4D.   We could care less about C4D Live.   As we try to navigate the mis-information concerning our options for our perpetual licenses, we are in  reality  thinking more about leaving C4D than continuing the journey.   We just need all the facts before we make one final decision.

 

That is what happens when trust is lost...what you once loved quickly becomes something you despise.  I would imagine that to hear that drum beat for 31 pages can be a little distressing to MAXON employees.

 

So our good friends at MAXON, who once celebrated with us over R20 one year ago, have now gone silent.  Maybe...just maybe, this realization is also making them face some changes about what they once believed in.  Maybe...just maybe....they are doing some "storming" of their own.   

 

So my sincere hope is this:  Their silence implies that our anger has been felt.  That it is being discussed.  That they are looking to management to guide them...and us...to an acceptable middle ground were we all benefit, where we are all comfortable with the licensing changes that MAXON has introduced. 

 

That no one, especially the independent Studio owner and hobbyist who has poured so much time and money into this software, is left behind. 

 

Maybe...just maybe...they are busily trying to develop a unified plan and message where we are all made whole again.

 

Mabye....just maybe that is my hope.

 

...but hope is a bad strategy and we need to be real....

 

...and MAXON  needs to restore our trust.

 

Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Interesting that for the last couple of pages in this thread, the major theme has been "so exactly what my options if I want to stay perpetual?" 

 

Amidst all that confusion, there have been NO posts from any MAXON employee.  We have not even heard from those employee's who run the forum (Igor last posted over 140 messages ago).  Maybe they are waiting for us to pass through the "storming" phase of change and calm down and enter the "norming" or acceptance phase of change before they show themselves again.   After all, we have more in common with an angry mob this week than the once peaceful lovers of C4D we used to be last week.  Heck, if I were them, I would stay away.

 

So....confusion reigns....tempers flare (including mine)....and MAXON is silent.  

 

But maybe...just maybe....our reaction just took them by surprise. 

 

They initially faced the angry mob and  tried to defend MAXON's position that subscriptions are great for "THE WHOLE WORLD" but the arguments kept coming - and when you do the math, they had nothing to defend themselves.   They drank the cool-aid that subscriptions  were just soooo game changing and soo amazing because it allowed everyone to get Studio.   Images of THE WHOLE WORLD using C4D Studio were just too exciting for them to ignore.  In that daze of 3D utopia that had been created at MAXON, they failed to realize that their existing customers, in particular their Studio customers, were NOT THE WHOLE WORLD.  We are the ones being cast aside, being asked to pay more than others to get the very same thing. 

 

We were simply left behind.

 

Never in their good-hearted imagination (and they do have good hearts) did it occur to them that to independent Studio owners, their entire proposal and rules on subscriptions and perpetual licenses makes them  - in fact - look like Adobe.  This has to be a shock to them because for years we kept asking "Will MAXON become like Adobe" and for years we heard the uniform cry in return "MAXON will never be like Adobe".  

 

Well....they have become Adobe.  They didn't know it but they did....and it shocks them to their very core.

 

"We were the good guys" they are saying to one another in surprise as the dream of "3D for the Whole world" starts to collapse on them for the money making sham it really is.  "How did we let this happen?" they ask in disbelief.

 

They now realize that they have also lost something as well in this whole debacle.   Their passions and values for Cinema 4D were once lock step in-tune with those of their customers - making C4D the most fun, stable and easy to use DCC software out there.  But now our values are different.  We are no longer excited about C4D.   We could care less about C4D Live.   As we try to navigate the mis-information concerning our options for our perpetual licenses, we are in  reality  thinking more about leaving C4D than continuing the journey.   We just need all the facts before we make one final decision.

 

That is what happens when trust is lost...what you once loved quickly becomes something you despise.  I would imagine that to hear that drum beat for 31 pages can be a little distressing to MAXON employees.

 

So our good friends at MAXON, who once celebrated with us over R20 one year ago, have now gone silent.  Maybe...just maybe, this realization is also making them face some changes about what they once believed in.  Maybe...just maybe....they are doing some "storming" of their own.   

 

So my sincere hope is this:  Their silence implies that our anger has been felt.  That it is being discussed.  That they are looking to management to guide them...and us...to an acceptable middle ground were we all benefit, where we are all comfortable with the licensing changes that MAXON has introduced. 

 

That no one, especially the independent Studio owner and hobbyist who has poured so much time and money into this software, is left behind. 

 

Maybe...just maybe...they are busily trying to develop a unified plan and message where we are all made whole again.

 

Mabye....just maybe that is my hope.

 

...but hope is a bad strategy and we need to be real....

 

...and MAXON  needs to restore our trust.

 

Dave

 

Dave, MAXON isn't going to change their minds on this. This is the whole Adobe-forced-subscription saga...another chapter. No human appeals will work...as there is an absence of humanity at the top. 

 

As for loss of trust and respect...yes total. As for a  puncturing of enthusiasm for the product, yup. It's gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Well....they have become <removed>.  They didn't know it but they did....and it shocks them to their very core.

 

You might feel better thinking it shocks them. I don't believe they're even bothered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

 

Dave, MAXON isn't going to change their minds on this. This is the whole Adobe-forced-subscription saga...another chapter.

 

As for loss of trust and respect...yes total. As for a  puncturing of enthusiasm for the product, yup. It's gone.

There is a lot of confusion out there about what happens next concerning perpetual licenses (both upgrade costs and activation)....and they have gone silent...probably because they have been told to keep silent until MAXON can develop a unified response that makes sense and is accepted by everyone.  Yes..the corporate mind that forced MAXON into a subscription model (and I use the word "forced" intentionally) probably did calculate that net profits would be up at the loss of a few Studio owners.  But in reality, no company EVER wants to lose customers.  So my hope is that our anger is being felt and they are trying to figure out what they can "afford" to give Studio owners  so that we stay as customers.  In this discussion, I am sure Redshift licensing is a big lever which they are trying to figure out  just how hard they need to pull to get us to stay.

 

That is my hope stated less eloquently (I am on PTO today and wanted to try some creative writing with that post....it was fun to write).

 

Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why is everyone so sure about the forced subscription thing? no one from MAXON has ever said perpetual is going away nor do we know for sure what upgrade prices for perpetual will be. why jump to conclusions at this point? what if upgrade prices will be fair and cost no more than current msa? what exactly has changed then for studio msa owners?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave, the reaction shouldn't have come as a surprise. There would have been some very robust discussion in the Beta Tester's forum that I was once part of.

 

Do as I do and vote with your wallet.  I cancelled my daily newspaper from 1 August as the price had gone up again. I told them a year ago that next price increase I would be cancelling my subscription that I've had for many years. $3 a day for a newspaper is just too much. But I have just forked out US $399 for another's year's subscription / updates for Modo. I'm happy with the value for money I'm getting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

There is a lot of confusion out there about what happens next concerning perpetual licenses (both upgrade costs and activation)....and they have gone silent...probably because they have been told to keep silent until MAXON can develop a unified response that makes sense and is accepted by everyone.  Yes..the corporate mind that forced MAXON into a subscription model (and I use the word "forced" intentionally) probably did calculate that net profits would be up at the loss of a few Studio owners.  But in reality, no company EVER wants to lose customers.  So my hope is that our anger is being felt and they are trying to figure out what they can "afford" to give Studio owners  so that we stay as customers.  In this discussion, I am sure Redshift licensing is a big lever which they are trying to figure out  just how hard they need to pull to get us to stay.

 

That is my hope stated less eloquently (I am on PTO today and wanted to try some creative writing with that post....it was fun to write....interesting that usually I use my free time for C4D....yes...the love is gone).

 

Dave

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

There is a lot of confusion out there about what happens next concerning perpetual licenses (both upgrade costs and activation)....

 

Dave

 

Not much confusion really. They sure have a plan mapped out. 

 

For the short term (once MSA conversions are mopped up) the perpetual license upgrade will be not less than $900 per year. It will be that, more...or perhaps down the road...completely unavailable. Are any of those acceptable? Not for me. Nor is subscribing.

 

I agree that we vote w/our wallet. I plan to give my money to one of MAXON's competitors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 3DKiwi said:

Dave, the reaction shouldn't have come as a surprise. There would have been some very robust discussion in the Beta Tester's forum that I was once part of.

 

Do as I do and vote with your wallet.  I cancelled my daily newspaper from 1 August as the price had gone up again. I told them a year ago that next price increase I would be cancelling my subscription that I've had for many years. $3 a day for a newspaper is just too much. But I have just forked out US $399 for another's year's subscription / updates for Modo. I'm happy with the value for money I'm getting.

So as  a past modo user (I still have a license from 401) , I think I can get back into the software for a reasonable cost.  But here are the challenges which I am sure you faced:

 

1) How easy/hard is it to convert C4D files, textures and UV's to modo?  How well is FBX import?

2)  The interface was always daunting.  Did they make the object manager any easier to use?  Any recommended modo tutorials for beginners akin to the little blue airplane one you did for C4D (that one is a classic)?

3) Does modo have particle animation, fluid simulation?  X-Particles is just too addictive to walk away from and it gets so much more powerful with each release.  Anything close in the modo world? 

4) I also love Forester (tree generation and animation).....anything close?  Does modo even have plugins?

 

I have three choices and each will be voted on with my pocket book (but I must look at more than just the software)

 

  1. Stick with MAXON...tough to do when you are this angry....but the worst decisions tend to be the most emotional ones.
  2. Go with Blender.  R2.8 looks to have a better interface and the Blender eco-system of model/tutorial/plugin developers is pretty huge.  In fact, there are some modeling plugins I would love to have in C4D.  Plus Blender has fluids.
  3. Go with modo.  I need to evaluate if the Blender UI in R2.8 represents more of less of a challenge than the modo interface.  In the absence of all other information, if I can learn the modo interface faster than Blender's, then I would probably go with modo.

Fun times ahead.

 

Dave

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Latest Topics

Latest Comments

×
×
  • Create New...