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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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10 minutes ago, hobbyist said:

The communications (or lack of) around converting from perpetual to subscription very confusing and disappointing. The prices were available for people that have never used C4D, however it seemed like nothing solid was prepared for your current users. 

 

My license is with Ireland/UK and they said they're unable to comment on costs until September. That's very disappointing to hear. Can you please communicate what way the discounts will be.

 

Will the Redshift bundle be available at discount for two years as well?

 

Many of the presentations at Siggraph were excellent and I am looking forward to R21.

 

I don't have an issue with converting to subscription if the discount makes sense to move off perpetual.

 

Admittedly, we've had trouble communicating the conversion options - in part because they're largely dependent on your currency, current edition, you current expiration date, and the date you choose to convert.

 

A big part of our efforts here was to simplify the choices for new customers, so I think trying to explain every possible option for existing customers would've led to more confusion. In fact, there's lots of permutations that were added to the price list to help existing users with the transition.

 

The basic conversion offer is this - if you have an active MSA for an edition other than Studio, you can lock in 2 years at roughly the same price as your current MSA. If you have an active MSA for C4D Studio, you can lock in the first 2 years at a 20% discount. 

 

You have the option of adding 2 years of Redshift for the same price difference you see in the bundles (Looks like 480 GBP exVAT for 2 years in the UK).

 

Glad you enjoyed the Siggraph presentations! 

 

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Quote

 

I saw a video of the MAXON CEO saying “MAXON needs to be a global company”.

 

You can start to see what that means. You bully your customers, treat them like sh** and put them inline. Train them to be good little sheep. Make them perpetually dependent and bleed them for every dollar possible.

It’s how the big global banks and telecom providers do it.

 

To me they are now MAXOFF...and the enemy now.

 

 

With all respect, as IceCaveMan has been here a long time and deserves to be heard, this hyperbolic, insulting nonsense is a pain to read and does no-one any favours.

 

Autodesk is a global company. Here in Australia they regularly have free industry sessions where they show off their software to young graduates and have Disney animators visiting to show off the behind the scenes workflow from ZOOTOPIA and stuff like that.

 

The Foundry is a global company. Here in Melbourne Mariana Acuna Acosta was regularly flown out here to show off MODO and give big long inspirational speeches about how great the company and the software was. The Foundry guys bought everyone free beer and pizza and Mariana got up on stage in front of the graduates and said, guess what kids, MODO has a special discounted student special starting next week and you can all buy your MODO licenses for a low price. Lots of wide eyes and happy smiles as the graduates all drank and chatted to the Foundry folk and talked how they were keen to get into the software.

 

Digistor held a CINEMA 4D session in Melbourne and I saw it on a mailing list and thought I'd attend. This was just after Cineware had come out. A local After Effects guy gave a talk about some AE features, and I sat next to a Japanese guy who had relocated here and who was an expert at Softimage XSI. He was curious about C4D. Then a middle-aged woman with zero enthusiasm came out and ran through a demonstration of a car bumper being put onto the front of a vehicle - I later saw this exact same demonstration online from a more prominent trainer - and I kind of saw all the enthusiasm drain out of the room. No buzz and I remember wishing Tim Clapham had come down from Sydney to liven things up. From the age of the attendees it didn't seem to be a room of students either. Just folks in post and design who were C4D curious for the day.

 

If MAYA and MODO and other software packages are promoted on a subscription plan to young graduates who have left their studies, who are starting in the industry, with easy to install licensing, and with regular offers to get folks to resubscribe if they lapse, MAXON really should just pack things in if they don't remain competitive and gun for the same customers. This is so blindingly obvious - MAXON's competitors are global, and MAXON will invite trouble if they don't match their competitors strengths - that it boggles the mind that you'd see the comment as indicative of sinister intent. There was a Cinema 4D MeetUp group in Melbourne for a couple of months and I spoke to the guy who ran it. Within a short period of time he'd rebranded the MeetUp as only a few people attending had bought the Studio version of C4D, but everyone there was an Adobe subscriber, so it made more sense to keep shared billing rather than focusing on a software pack that lots of the visitors either hadn't been able to or hadn't been encouraged to buy.

 

David McGavran - who in the behind the scenes videos that have popped up online with him and Paul Babb and others, seems like a completely friendly and jovial and likeable guy - comes and visits this forum, which didn't happen too often with the other owners, and sends a friendly hello before giving what I found to be a sincere talk, certainly much more honest and passionate than his appearance on the Apple stage when he was with Adobe, and IceCaveMan and a few others here respond with really brutal cynicism and sarcasm. As I've mentioned before, this is the sort of snide language that IceCaveMan used against folks who were happily subscribing to the Adobe Creative Cloud. IceCaveMan - are you intending your comments labelling MAXON as bullies, and as the enemy, to accomplish anything productive? If you are, I can't imagine right now what it may be.

 

Here's a nice video below of Paul Babb and Dave McGavran chatting just after the Redshift announcement. McGavran seems honestly excited and sincere. And these are the guys who IceCaveMan tells us are bullies, who want to treat their customers with contempt, and who deserve to be scorned. To be honest I'm seeing ugly behaviour come from one side here, and it's not from the guys at MAXON.

 

The MAXON guys have likely noticed posts  - here and at CgTalk - from the 30 or 40 vocal regulars who are unhappy that their standard upgrade procedure with Studio has been chucked for an entirely new paradigm. But surfing around I've seen just as many posts from folks on Twitter, on Reddit, on the Luxology forums and elsewhere who have pretty much all said, "Wow! I can finally afford this! I'll definitely give it a shot." I just find it funny that folks who have been bemoaning the pace of C4D development for years drop to their knees and scream to the heavens when a guy comes along who wants to expand the community, get more people onboard and ramp things up.

 

Next time I visit one of the local post-production meet ups, I'll approach a handful of grads there and ask what they'd prefer, an AU $5610.00 C4D Studio purchase from Digistor, or an annual entry fee here that will probably land at around grand annually. I'll probably also ask how many are apprehensive that MAXON - who can't be too far from celebrating their 30 year anniversary, who just won an Academy Award and who just bought Redshift - will suddenly vanish from the internet and give everyone login errors when they try to activate their sub. 

 

I used to feel that millenials, as a whole, were a degree dumber and less informed in online discussions. This thread gives me solid evidence that I should probably consider the reverse proposition and give those newcomers a break.

 

 

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A general response that might address a number of questions and concerns:

 

I think it's clear that MAXON is moving faster than ever before in the past year since David started as CEO. We've reorganized the company, completed our first acquisition and developed a new option for selling and delivering our software. There's also been a great many positive internal changes y'all haven't seen. Each one of these efforts should have individually taken a year or more, but we've achieved quite a bit thanks to a great team that's extremely devoted to MAXON, Cinema 4D and our user community.

 

While this shouldn't serve as an excuse - it may provide a bit of explanation if you've noticed a bit of raggedness. It comes not from a lack of enthusiasm, but quite the contrary - perhaps a bit of over-enthusiasm that's led to taking on a lot in a little time. I really wish I'd been able to produce the Cineversity video content for the new release we've had in the past, because there's fantastic features and usability improvements in R21. There simply wasn't time to get it done before this year's Siggraph announcement.

 

The speed with which we're changing is the main reason I'd be hesitant to make firm commitments on release and delivery. It's not because we don't have plans, and not because we're trying to keep you in the dark or trick you. I'm amazed at what we've achieved in the last year, and it's hard to imagine how MAXON and the industry will continue to change over the next 3 years.

 

I can say personally that I've never worked harder in my life, and never been so excited about the work I'm doing. There's more pressure, drive and resources than ever to deliver the best products to the best user community.

 

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I have a quick question in the most chill relaxed tone of voice ever, but doesn't this seem like it should be reversed, or am I missing something here:

"The basic conversion offer is this - if you have an active MSA for an edition other than Studio, you can lock in 2 years at roughly the same price as your current MSA. If you have an active MSA for C4D Studio, you can lock in the first 2 years at a 20% discount. "

Because if that's the case wouldn't I want to ditch my studio license ASAP and try to swap it for a prime license since it would be considerably cheaper for the next two years, since that MSA was (correct me if I'm wrong), much cheaper than the Studio one? And if that's the case, wouldn't the Studio folks end up paying more for an incremental upgrade, while Prime customers would pay considerably less for a major upgrade to their feature set? That's all I'm confused about, but I probably am just confused.

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I want to personally thank Rick, Igor, Srek,  Hrvoje and Cerbera.  And above all thanks to 3DKiwi, who has been a champ and done so much, founding this site. You each have been generous, gentlemanly, and enjoyable. I want to thank the many other cool posters here.

 

C4d and this forum have brought me a lot of good times. I won't disappear completely but it's time for me to (for the most part) move on. I've communicating my views...and said what I felt needed to be said.

 

Big Picture: I'll still hang out for now on the CG site. But time to say goodbye.

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4 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

Dave, the reaction shouldn't have come as a surprise. There would have been some very robust discussion in the Beta Tester's forum that I was once part of.

 

Do as I do and vote with your wallet.  I cancelled my daily newspaper from 1 August as the price had gone up again. I told them a year ago that next price increase I would be cancelling my subscription that I've had for many years. $3 a day for a newspaper is just too much. But I have just forked out US $399 for another's year's subscription / updates for Modo. I'm happy with the value for money I'm getting.

 

I paid $400 for a two year license for Houdini Indie. if I decide not to renew in two years it reverts back to Apprentice, still fully functional but can't use third party render, export FBX and a size limitation in animation/visual. Also, and this was big for me,  SideFX doesn't hammer you if you skip a few upgrades, still same price if you renew year to year or skip a few. Also they listen to their users. I found a bug, submitted it and two months later they pushed an update with the fix and  a few other fixes. Houdini isn't all unicorns and rainbows it has quirks but they are working on it.  

 

My worry with C4D would be will increase in subscription cost. would MAXON guarantee no price increases to subscriptions for several years? doubtful.  I'd hate to have all my eggs in the subscription basket for $60 a month then a few years down the road it goes up to 70 or 80 or 100 and you get priced out. if it were truly month to month, which my understanding it isn't, you could pay for a couple months to get your work in and export it then let subscription lapse and move on.

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23 minutes ago, connartist said:

I have a quick question in the most chill relaxed tone of voice ever, but doesn't this seem like it should be reversed, 

 

The basic idea here is to try to provide users of the various editions a bit of time to prepare for changes in the annual cost.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, bobc4d said:

if it were truly month to month, which my understanding it isn't, you could pay for a couple months to get your work in and export it then let subscription lapse and move on.

 

There's a monthly price and an annual price. As you can imagine it's cheaper in the long run with an annual commitment, but you'll certainly be able to subscribe for a single month. Keep in mind too that C4D offers the Cineware library for 3rd party apps to read and write the file format, and we've got great partners making use of that library. For instance, you can load a C4D in After Effects and render it.

 

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Thanks to all the MAXON people who take the time to read and answer our questions. 

I belong to the disillusioned users but also hear the challenges that MAXON is facing. 

 

I don’t know if there is an evil plot and do not care at this point but as stressed on several occasions, we need clarity on the options for existing  studio license  owners:

-upgrade pricing for perpetual licenses 

-inclusion of cineversity or not. 

-perpetual license availability beyond R21

-features va subscription license 

 

This will hopefully calm everybody down. 

 

Thank you all and again, I appreciate you took the time to post here, including David. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, RBarrett said:

 

As you noted several pages ago, we've been busy with Siggraph. Though not dealing with upset customers - quite the contrary. The customers we spoke with at the show (both existing customers and soon-to-be-customers) are very excited about the new options that are going to offer many more folks an opportunity to join the amazing Cinema 4D community. And despite the tone of some posts here, I do still believe this is the best community around any piece of software - so many folks willing to share their techniques and their time - including the 20+ presenters that you saw on C4DLive and many others who staffed demo stations in the MAXON, Redshift, Intel, AMD and Nvidia booths. So many partners have admired both the strength of our community and the excitement over our acquisition of Redshift and our new pricing, and they're eager to play a larger role in the C4D ecosystem. My week was largely spent with them and with customers.

 

Amidst the Siggraph meetings, I've done my best to read through the various forums and other online communities and respond as much as possible (as have other MAXON team members). It hasn't been easy - often trying to parse pages and pages of comments on a phone and pecking out responses on a tiny keyboard. I'm sorry we haven't been able to be more present here and that there's been confusion. 

 

I'm back home now, and I'll do my best to answer questions.

 

Rick,

 

There is one thing you need to unpack for me.

 

The 20% discount for R21 is not that attractive.  What kills me is that Prime MSA owners get Studio for the cost of a Prime MSA.  That is certainly way more than a 20% discount over two years.  That is just not fair.    By my math, that is a $470 savings that Prime users get over Studio users.  Studio users only get a $288 savings.  So you are still $182 short to being fair.

 

Honestly, you need to throw in Redshift for that two year period as well at the same price.  Yes...you need to go a little beyond what's fair to MAXON (advantage user) but then again it is our trust that you need to restore. 

 

Or give ALL current MSA owners (from Prime to Studio) a one year subscription for $250 (the cost of a Prime MSA).  There...you want simple....now that is simple.  I will gladly  give you $250 just to see how this prescription things works out (eg. will you really be giving feature updates in that one year period?).

 

Also, what is the cost for R20 Studio MSA owners to upgrade to an R21 perpetual license?  And please share how the EULA is being written regarding my rights to a perpetual license.  I would like to see specific wording that it will NEVER be shut off as I would imagine that the legal wording of "perpetual" is taken quite seriously in US courts.

 

Time to get real.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

There is one thing you need to unpack for me.

 

The 20% discount for R21 is not that attractive. 

 

Hey Dave,

 

Unfortunately it's difficult to be 'fair' to both camps. I think there's lots of benefit to all C4D users that we'll only have to worry about a single C4D edition from now on - there's certainly benefit to us from a product management and development perspective, and several third-party developers have told me they're really happy with the decision. But we didn't want to leave users of other editions completely out in the cold.

 

28 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Also, what is the cost for R20 Studio MSA owners to upgrade to an R21 perpetual license? 

 

R20 Studio MSA customers with a valid MSA in the beginning of September will receive an R21 perpetual license. 

 

28 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

And please share how the EULA is being written regarding my rights to a perpetual license.

 

I don't have the updated EULA handy - I'll see if I can track it down next week.

 

-Rick

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I have found alternatives to the tools i use in my work and the last thing was my 3D software.

Seems MAXON has now pushed me to find an alternative for it also.

I am not an animator so i am not that stuck to C4D like many others and Blender now is very much acceptable to work and thats were i will invest my time.

 

MAXON, you went to one of my favorite companys to one of the crapy ones. Hope you change, but i doubt it. Money is the compass of big companies and i see were you are heading. Thats life i guess. 

 

Thank you all who taught me directly and indirecly using C4D and modeling, rendering, texturing, etc. Those who replyed to my dumb questions, and those who shared their knowledge just because, and allowed a nobody like me to learn some stuff and manage to get a job. I am very, very thankful to you all.

 

Goodbye and good luck to all.

 

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