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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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14 minutes ago, RBarrett said:

I don't know. If you've skipped two years of upgrades from now you're asking me to tell you what the price list will look like two years from now. I honestly don't know. 

 

 

I wasn't asking how much it would be, I was asking if a perpetual owner that was choosing to subscribe for lets say 2 years would they be expecting to pay the same upgrade prices to bring their perpetual licence upto date as the user who skipped two years and did not subscribe?  This hypothetical scenario is one that may or may have not been discussed,  but for obvious reasons is something that would need answers moving forward.  Nobody who owns their own perpetual licence would want to subscribe and simultaneously keep their perpetual licence upto date.

 

Thanks, Dan

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1 hour ago, RBarrett said:

 

I can only provide perpetual pricing from R20 to R21, because that's all I have. Not because there won't be perpetual pricing or because we're trying to keep it a secret, but because as far as I know it hasn't been discussed. This wasn't designed as a plan to eliminate perpetual - it was designed to make Cinema 4D more affordable by lowering the cost of entry. We figured for the most part folks that wanted to keep perpetual would renew their MSA and wouldn't need an upgrade price until later.

Thanks for getting back. So going forward, there will still be the option of perpetual in the future? I would imagine this definitely has been discussed (as there's lots of 'Adobe' fears going around). Have to admit, not happy with being penalised with a higher cost than MSA and Cineversity being taken away (any chance you could explain the reasoning behind this decision as it just seems like a punishment for not going the 'permanently-rent / own-nothing' model). 

I've an existing MSA that'll take me through R21 till the following August. I'd image MSA folk will be eligible for 'in that 'year' upgrades? Is that something you could clarify?

1 hour ago, RBarrett said:

 

 

 

It warms my heart that there's so much concern about Cineversity. You'll have Cineversity until your current MSA expires. Anyone on subscription will also have full access to Cineversity. I'm not sure about a separate Cineversity subscription for perpetual customers - have to check on that. What I do know for sure is that the Cineversity team is hoping to produce more and more tutorials - many of which will be freely-available to everyone.

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, RonMedia said:

So if I read some recent posts correctly...

 

if I pay the $720 for Studio MSA this august 2019 (last month to ever get an MSA renewal), I get R21 (sep 2019) and R22 (sep 2020)? And prime MSA folks only get R21. Is this for sure and clearly stated somewhere?

Hi

 

No, if you get a MSA now for R20 (if in your region it sells it still)  it covers for R21 as a single year MSA has always been. This assumes you dont have a MSA and may want to get one your one is to expire.  R22 there will be no MSA to purchase only a upgrade in which we dont know how much that will be.  Rick has just confirmed this a few posts back.

 

Current Prime or other versions bellow studio who already have a MSA in place will get a instant upgrade to R21 Studio for this release only.    At the moment there is nothing on MAXON.net regarding MSA details for now regarding upgrades or benefits for versions other than studio regarding upgrades.   I would therefore ring your local MAXON distributor and see what they offer in that region.

 

Unfortunately its the case that one has to read between the lines, and many pages to get some official answers.

 

Dan

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One thing is confusing me very much.  I have Perpetual R20 and keep reading that Perpetual R21 will be offered, but I do not understand how in any way it can be called Perpetual if it requires an online login and needs to check that every 14 days.  Perpetual what exactly ?  This seems to me even an illegal description, or do I misunderstand something ?

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Thanks Rectro. Actually I deleted that post right after I wrote it when I discovered I missed a whole bunch of posts.

 

-----

 

So if one doesn't have MSA, upgrading perpetual R20 to R21 is $1000. If one skips R21, upgrade price from R20 to R22 is unknown but likely higher than $1000 (would like to know what that will be). And even higher price R20 to R23. Don't know if R20 to R23 R24 R25 perpetual license upgrades will even be available.

 

Subscriptions are $60 x 12 months aka $720 a year currently, could change any year. Really it should be lower.

 

Well, we're all in different boats and have various views. For me it's pretty simple. Either I get a deal like Prime licensees and pay $250 (instead of $720) for MSA this August to get R21 perpetual in September or I don't. If I can, great. If not, I'll live with R20 for a bunch of years, learn Blender, and maybe get a subscription for R27 or R28 when that comes out just to mess with it for a year, maybe, can't really predict 8 years from now.

 

I imagine a whole lot of Prime folks fine with $250 MSA a year aren't going to go for $720 a year for various reasons (why they picked Prime in the first place), and stick with R21 perpetual for a long, long time.

 

----

OmegaMan: Perpetual in that you can use R21 from September 2019 thru 2020, 2021, 2022, 23, 24, 25...etc. I think that's what it means. Unless MAXON stops maintaining the check-in server for whatever reason. Your R20 should still work tho, unless it doesn't in Windows 20, or Mac OS X 10.25 (can probably maintain an old system that works).

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3 hours ago, everfresh said:

i agree with dan, IMO it would be a good idea to make at least the tuts on cineversity available to everybody. it's the best place to get familiar with new features and to easily find tutorials for current problems you're facing. whenever i'm using a feature that i can't wrap my head around instantly i go and look it up on CV.

 

Uh, for me the CV Plugins are absolutely essential. I definitely don’t want a subscription. Loosing Cineversity after my MSA expires would totally suck big time. I think all customers, especially Perpetual-upgraders should have access to CV. Why not bundle CV with every upgrade for a year in addition to a stand alone subscription.

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As long as there is both subsription and perpetual. Everyone should be treated the same. The perpetual users paied upfront to have access later. And subsrition guys need to pay a perpetual license when they want to leave and keep access to their work. So 720 for a year subsripion with cineversity and 720 for a perpetual update from the previouse Version with one year access to cineversity. 

 

Very simple! 

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49 minutes ago, Macgyver said:

Uh, for me the CV Plugins are absolutely essential. I definitely don’t want a subscription. Loosing Cineversity after my MSA expires would totally suck big time. I think all customers, especially Perpetual-upgraders should have access to CV. Why not bundle CV with every upgrade for a year in addition to a stand alone subscription.

i‘m all for that. cv should be available to everybody who spent money on c4d, regardless of the model they choose. 

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6 hours ago, RonMedia said:

Subscriptions are $60 x 12 months aka $720 a year currently, could change any year. 

 

That's not the real price. You cannot pay $59.99 monthly. You will have to pay $720 AT ONCE. 

If you want to pay monthly you will have to pay $94.99 per month.

 

People are getting confused about this because MAXON is using blatantly false advertising. 

Note how Rick and the other MAXON employees here totally ignored my post about this. 

 

And I repeat that false advertising is illegal in some countries. It is illegal here in Canada where I live and illegal in my home country, Brazil

 

I love Cinema4D, so it is very disappointing to see MAXON doing this. 

Be honest guys and stop with the misleading advertising. 

You don't need this, no need to lie. $720 annually is still a good deal.

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I say it like it is: My trust in MAXON is gone.


Just as it was when Adobe introduced its rental software and cut millions of users' access to their works
(if they do not pay, pay, pay…)

Yes, I may have a (hypothetical) minor hurdle in using the software. The price: I have to pay to even open or edit my own works.
I'm addicted. With every plug-in, with every purchased model, this depravity increases...


And that's why companies love this dependency model of course (like dealers).
And want to win as many sheep as possible - Who are happy that they come oh so cheap to these tools.

The fact that after a few years they have somehow paid the full price obviously falls to the least.
If bad times come up or other software might be more attractive... Well then… What then?


I love what I do. Whether commercial or private.

One day, I may not be able or do not want to do professional 3D graphics any more.
Then I do not want to pay until the end of my days for my tools.
(And I can´t understand those who don´t care about subscription or not - Don´t you love your works?)
The Tools I have learned and in which I put a lot of time.

Likewise, I want security for all the money I invest in addition to the main product.
Plugins, model libraries, textures, render-engines, etc.
Actually, this should be the same for most users.
And actually, MAXON should know that his users are doing so.
Not for nothing has long been argued that MAXON is not just "for rent".


If now at this point is argued quite differently, raises questions for me.
Suddenly "some like it, the others do not ... MAXON has decided".
Yes you have. And now the ball is with us / with me.

 

And I'll do what I've done in other cases too: I'm going to turn my back on MAXON.
I am a user of the very first hour. I Use Cinema since it can be bought. I have always admired the company philosophy.
I have been pleased with many friendly answers and the great support over the years.

But it only takes one guy of Adobe and a few decisions at the very top to turn a company into something else.

From the Top to One of Many.
The future way is foreseeable and the marketing chatter sounds already like Adobe at that time.
"Creative Cloud" - nothing was creative about that and Cloud did not care about that either. That was Hipp 2012.
"3D for the whole world" - Yes, but also for those who do not have such a big budget.
Since the smaller versions were right (as also with the Adobe suites).
An indie version would of course be even better.
"3D for the whole world" - Thats Blender, not MAXON.
It is and remains marketing Gibberish.

 

No, dear, new management at MAXON - it's not us - the long-standing users who are still in the foreground.

It is the money.
Hardly the company is no longer led by the former developers - already blowing a whole new wind.
It's about luring so many new disciples into a subscription model. And sure, with a "low set hurdle" you can succeed.

(How is it called, when dealers do that?)
Just as you no longer buy cars nowadays - you lease them. Lives on pump.
I would lie if I wish you to succeed.

 

Nevertheless, my criticism does not go to all the developers. You have been great guys in the past.
And at times your software has fascinated me - I do not even like to call it cinema anymore - really.

But if I have to watch arguments suddenly turn.
When I see how bad you communicate the whole thing
(something you've never done in the past - considering how carefully everything had been done from your house so far)
When I see how obvious suddenly absolute NoGos become...
(MSA Studio users get as well as MSA Prime users 20% discount on their respective MSA price to switch to the SAME product - those who pay for years already pay But it shows only too clearly where it goes: Of course, studio users will continue to stick to it, we can already cup a little, they are not hobbyists, but above all, we need many, new users ... Man, if I acted that way, I would have problems looking in the mirror, not that I do not begrudge the Prime users, but THE LEAST would have been the SAME price).

 

It is the path from which you promise the greatest and fastest success.
Clear.
We understood.

But I do not trust you anymore.
Even if it hurts me.

 

It does not hurt just because I lose a cherished program with it.
Not only because it also makes many additional expenses obsolete (TP / Turbulence FD / VUE XStream / a huge library / etc. - but you know that, otherwise you would not be jumping around with Studio users).
Not only because it took a lot of time to know the program in every corner.
The list could go further.

 

As long as there are alternatives to rent (and that is foreseeable for you) I will use alternatives.
I did that with Adobe (Not a Penny since 2012) and I'll do it for you.
If there are no longer Aletrnatives - do not forget that the competition - also in terms of prices - is not so far away.
And it has completely different toy-boxes for sale.

I do not want to invest money in additional products when I feel like I'm in the hands of a company I depend on.


I do not want to spend more time in software that's lost to me.

 

MY WORK AND THE UNRESTRICTED ACCESS TO IT HAS THE ABSOLUTE PRIORITY FOR ME.

 

(It´s like painting & when I want to have a look on my Picture I have to pay)

 

You do not stand for that anymore.
Yours as a company - As I said: thank the workforce.

 

Hey, come on - is that all MAXON as we've known before (?) :
Perpetual with "Calling Home" is a joke.
That you also turn off the Cinevercity access ...
No - sorry, your words are not convincing here.


Yes - there has changed a lot since the new CEO:
It takes a year to renew the LogIn System, Breaking all PlugIns, Making Perpetual calling home and sell it as an Update.

 

I am working hard to find the best possible way for me. And for a while Version 20 will probably accompany me.

(I´ll get V21 through my MSA, but...Thanks.)

 

BtW:
With all your nice plans, do not forget that companies like Adobe were monopolists when they came up with this .
You are not so. There are larger and better and more powerful.

If I were Adobe and would be interested in having 3D in my so called „Cloud" portfolio.
I would send one of my (cool, friendly, present, pelly, double-faced) marketing people to you, before would quickly stick to him he should introduce the subscription model, because the company must be "global".
And then we'll see ...
If things are not going as well as Adobe, then maybe we can eat MAXON even cheaper.
Oh: And best still mute the company's own forum on the subject for a while.

Like Adobe also did.

 

Beautiful new world.
FO Adobes Rent Philosophy

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I've got to say, MAXON's focus on this round of updates actually makes a lot of sense when you view it in light of the other initiative Dave McGavran mentioned during his talk - MAXON and various C4D guys are going to be travelling or meeting up internationally to showcase Cinema 4D to potential new users, both newcomers and those that use other apps.

 

So a lot of where the development focus went this time - which has had some people scratching their heads or feeling depressed - makes a lot more sense. Give it a fresh new UI upgrade and polish and 4K do-over so the first impression is of a really modern app.

 

Simplify the versions so the guys on the road don't have to spend 50% of their time answering or dealing with the question, jeez, should I get Broadcast? What is Prime missing? How much will it cost to upgrade higher in 2021, etc etc.

 

Do some more core rewriting - such as is visible with the GPU sped-up timeline - so things are fresher and more responsive. McGavran emphasised they'd done a fair bit of internal rewriting and modernising, if I heard him correctly.

 

Get the store fixed up so anyone who wants to jump in, can jump in immediately, and do so without having to check if they have $4000 or $5000 or whatever Studio was in the local area, in the bank. And also have Cineversity thrown in with that so they get an added bonus.

 

And have a variety of subscription methods going so if someone knows they'll only have a three month contract coming up, and the work after that - or studies, or whatever else - suggests they might have some downtime, the user can just sub for three months. Yes, it's more expensive per month than the 12-month sub is per month, but it's also cheaper than subbing for 12 months and then only using it for four or five months and then having a period where subbing isn't useful. Which has happened to me at least once with my Creative Cloud sub, though I think at that point I wasn't stuck in a 12 month contract.

 

After that, ideally the influx of new users gives Dave McGavran and MAXON and all the developers a steady new stream of subscription money that they can put directly towards the development of new features. Otherwise, why bother setting up an income stream where people can un-subscribe if a rival app has pulled significantly ahead? Once those subscribers are in the door, the focus will be on whether MAXON can then bring new things to the table and improve what is already there. The doom and gloom suggestion that they only want to get people subbed and then sit back and watch all the other 3D apps push towards getting new features while they themselves use the money to go on a boat trip or something, seems misguided to me. (Note to the venerable IceCaveMan if he cares - my version of After Effects CC 2018, which I think has never crashed, works fine on my old iMac, and I've watched the Mark Christiansen videos where MC happily shows off various rewriting improvements).

 

So I feel there is method to the madness, despite the ten or so guys here and the 12 or so at CgTalk who are downbeat, and who have started posting occasional threads on Blender. 

 

Also, that $720 at once quoted above does work out to be $59.99 per month over 12 months, which is the first question some people will want answered when they start comparing it to that $94.99 per occasional month if you don't sub for 12. They could maybe change a word or two, but come on, people are going to see that it's $720 up front as soon as they go to pay - before they choose to click the pay button or not - and it's not like they're going to subscribe, pay, and then get a surprise afterwards when they learn what they've just done. I think people know how online payment forms work at this point, and there's usually a big fat screen in bold type that tells you exactly what's about to happen before you click the payment option. This is hardly some underhand derring do on MAXON's part.

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@BoganTW:
I understand WHY companies like Subscriptions.

I understand WHY companies like a continuous income.

I SEE that many think, the entrance FEELS lower.

Remember: Perpetual licenses can be transfered. You OWN something.

I don´t think, you have read my post completely because you SKIPED nearby all of my arguments.

Especially regarding file-access.

Espec. in 3D Applications: Do you really think, there are that much who use it for a month or 3 for a project or study? It took me years to learn...

Development of Subscription Software:
NAME me 5 ABSOLUTE MUST HAVEs in Adobe SW since it became "Cloud"-Ware in 2012
(1. AE = a bit faster & bit more stable, yes, true. | 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 ?)

PS.: I would say I can do anything with CS as I can do with CC. If I like to.

Why can a 50$ Perpetual SW like Affinity Photo be faster than a highly powered SW offeres by worlds biggest Subscription-Dealer?

I´m an Professional since more than 35 years. Believe me - there are a bit more than 22 guys who don´t like subscription ; )

And I´m sure you know too.

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