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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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Sure perpetual licenses can be owned perpetually but every year they become less and less valuable. The value decreases based on the upgrade price so if I have a R21 license worth $3500 next year it would have been worth no more than $2750. ($3500 - $750 upgrade price) then the year after that the upgrade price increases so the value decreases further until it isn’t worth as much as buying the software new...

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6 hours ago, Macgyver said:

Uh, for me the CV Plugins are absolutely essential. I definitely don’t want a subscription. Loosing Cineversity after my MSA expires would totally suck big time. I think all customers, especially Perpetual-upgraders should have access to CV. Why not bundle CV with every upgrade for a year in addition to a stand alone subscription.

I don’t use CV plugins and really like tutorials to get up to speed with the new features. Try finding good tuts on node materials or fields elsewhere....Noseman, Rick, and all the others really know their stuff. 

 

I honestly believe  that Cineversity should be free for all C4d users regardless of their license type. 

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15 minutes ago, Pixelatednoise said:

Sure perpetual licenses can be owned perpetually but every year they become less and less valuable. The value decreases based on the upgrade price so if I have a R21 license worth $3500 next year it would have been worth no more than $2750. ($3500 - $750 upgrade price) then the year after that the upgrade price increases so the value decreases further until it isn’t worth as much as buying the software new...

@Pixelatednoise:

We had that already: Clearly Price will lower - if you do not update.

But Perpetual licenses Update-Costs were lower than the Subscriptions Renting-Fees.

In Case of Cinema:
(MSA Studio 595 vs Sub 710)

So - if you ever Update your Perpetual, Price will stay at its Price when you bought.

& you have to pay less every Year.

But Price isn´t my main argument.

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Quote

 

@BoganTW:
I understand WHY companies like Subscriptions.

I understand WHY companies like a continuous income.

I SEE that many think, the entrance FEELS lower.

Remember: Perpetual licenses can be transfered. You OWN something.

I don´t think, you have read my post completely because you SKIPED nearby all of my arguments.

Especially regarding file-access.

Espec. in 3D Applications: Do you really think, there are that much who use it for a month or 3 for a project or study? It took me years to learn...

Development of Subscription Software:
NAME me 5 ABSOLUTE MUST HAVEs in Adobe SW since it became "Cloud"-Ware in 2012
(1. AE = a bit faster & bit more stable, yes, true. | 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 ?)

PS.: I would say I can do anything with CS as I can do with CC. If I like to.

Why can a 50$ Perpetual SW like Affinity Photo be faster than a highly powered SW offeres by worlds biggest Subscription-Dealer?

I´m an Professional since more than 35 years. Believe me - there are a bit more than 22 guys who don´t like subscription ; )

And I´m sure you know too.

 

 

@Raischub - 

 

My listing of approximately 22 guys, give or take a handful, is a snapshot of the number who feel so passionate about it that they've decided to jump onto two of the main C4D sites online and talk about it. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who don't like subscription, and also a decent number who do. But I'm not seeing a huge torrent off users flooding in screaming about it. Just a dozen or 15 or more posters writing how the new scheme makes them feel terrible.

 

When I watched the McGavran opening keynote the livestream said there were around 1000 people watching. So the other 98% of people who have internet access but who haven't bothered to write anything on the two forums where MAXON folk chat and respond may well drop in later, I dunno.

 

This quote / response bit I'm typing up here isn't meant to be snarky btw, just responding to some of your comments.

 

Re this bit - 

 

Quote

I SEE that many think, the entrance FEELS lower.

 

If the cost of getting C4D Studio had dropped from $5000 down to around a grand here in Australia, does it just feel lower, or is it actually lower? I think $1000 feels lower than $5000 because it actually is lower, and feelings don't really come into it.

 

Quote

Remember: Perpetual licenses can be transfered. You OWN something.

 

Why do I have to remember this? I won't be purchasing a perpetual license. I'll be purchasing a subscription.

 

My subscription will still let me own something, btw. It'll let me own the right to sit and use C4D R21 (and upwards) on my computer for as long as I want to subscribe to it. 

 

I'd be more bothered about your reminder that perpetual licenses can be put on the marketplace and resold if I was spending multiple thousands to buy the license in the first place. But I'm not. The baseball bat hit of $5000+ AU locally has gone away. Thank (expletive deleted) God.

 

Quote

Espec. in 3D Applications: Do you really think, there are that much who use it for a month or 3 for a project or study? It took me years to learn...

 

For a long while, I was learning off the demo. But do I think that some people use the software for a month or 3 for a project? Given that some projects occasionally take a month or 3 to complete, yes.

 

If Yes Captain (Studio) in Melbourne decides to hire two more guys for a Summer job that runs ten weeks tops, they'll now just sub two more C4D installs for a few months apiece on those two machines - total cost less than a grand - rather than paying another $10,000 AU locally for two more full Studio installations. I don't think the owner is going to regret the saving because he can't resell the license later on.

 

Likewise, some grad has finished studying and decides he really, really wants to learn C4D instead of Maya. He has a PC and $500 in the bank. Does he (a.) sub for a few months and spend most of his hours learning the software, or (b. - old method) wait till he's worked another 12 months and has $5000 in savings to give to Digistor to buy Studio? 

 

Again, I don't think telling someone "Hey, if this software was a lot more expensive, and stayed that way, you can resell it afterwards!" has a great deal of appeal here.

 

Quote

NAME me 5 ABSOLUTE MUST HAVEs in Adobe SW since it became "Cloud"-Ware in 2012
(1. AE = a bit faster & bit more stable, yes, true.

 

Why am I supposed to do this? 

 

I bought CS4 in early 2009 and it was crashy as hell. It was the second time I'd bought the full Adobe package and had my plans to learn it scuttled because the whole thing crashed all the time. My original version of Premiere Pro (CS1) couldn't even burn a movie to disc without crashing. I'd spent hundreds on it, bundled with a capture card, and it was useless.

 

CS4 needed more grunt than the specs suggested and was as flaky as hell on my (pretty good) PC. So that was another wash, one I spent nearly two grand on.

 

Finally I have an iMac, and Creative Cloud, and both work fine. AE has either never or barely (no instance comes to mind) crashed.

 

So why you've put "A bit faster and more stable" in brackets down the bottom like it's a minor thing is a mystery. It's ALL I care about. The apps - and you can add Photoshop and Premiere and Illustrator to the mix - have more than enough features for me to be getting on with. I just want them to work, and not to crash all the time. For me, that goal has been reached. Occasional new features - and they're all getting them - are fine. And my sub a year or two ago was discounted to something like $34 or $29 AU monthly as a special offer for 12 months to get me to resubscribe. So fretting over a pace of development doesn't really come into it for me.

 

All that said at length (and I won't write any more long rambling posts for a while) I get that folks who have paid high $$ for Studio and were hoping for a Christmas-sized new features R21 spec list are double unhappy. Neither of those things really affects or bothers me though. I don't care about reselling C4D down the line, I don't care about some hypothetical future window where I decide I don't want potential new features but do want to sit and work without paying for a sub, and I'm not worried about some imagined day where MAXON have suddenly closed up shop. The only reason I followed C4DCafe and CGTalk threads online for years was because I'd read about C4D back in a 2001 3D World mag during my crummy office job, so even when all I could get was the demo, I was fascinated by what was discussed and shown. (It also took me years to understand even the most basic 3D concepts btw). It's now nearly 20 years later and MAXON and C4D are massively bigger. So I'm not expecting them to close up shop within the next ten years in a hurry to be honest. That's fine, and gives me all the confidence I need to eventually sub. If you disagree, cool, but none of the arguments outlining why things were ostensibly better for users pre-R21 convince, affect or bother me personally. 

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“For nothing is evil in the beginning.”

JRR Tolkien

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@BoganTW What version of C4D are you running?

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4 hours ago, Adrien said:
10 hours ago, Macgyver said:

 

I don’t use CV plugins and really like tutorials to get up to speed with the new features. Try finding good tuts on node materials or fields elsewhere....Noseman, Rick, and all the others really know their stuff. 

There are plenty of free stuff on all of that on our YT channel or in tutorials section of Cafe.

I am sure there are more out there...


| MAXON Quality Assurance Specialist | 3D Asset Creatior | C4D Cafe Manager | Gamer in Heart | :compEnjoy:

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„It´s like painting & when I want to have a look on my Picture I have to pay“

 

well, actually it’s not. it‘s like painting and having to pay for paint and brushes again if you wanna change your painting ;)

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7 minutes ago, everfresh said:

„It´s like painting & when I want to have a look on my Picture I have to pay“

 

well, actually it’s not. it‘s like painting and having to pay for paint and brushes again if you wanna change your painting ;)

Well - Yes.
Renting your brushes again and again and again.

And even when you want to mayke a Copy (higher resolution?) - you have to pay for.

You are using a new Software?
Want to convert a rented File? Pay for.

Client asks if you can change a color? Pay for.

Only went back into your archive - maybe searching for something? Pay for.

Can´t accept Subscription, but have tons of PlugIns? (In my Case the PlugIns are/were almost double the Price of my Studio)

Harharhar laughs the Dealer.

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4 hours ago, BoganTW said:

 

@Bogan TW:

...I don't care about some hypothetical future window where I decide I don't want potential new features but do want to sit and work without paying for a sub, and I'm not worried about some imagined day where MAXON have suddenly closed up shop...

...So I'm not expecting them to close up shop within the next ten years in a hurry to be honest. That's fine, and gives me all the confidence I need to eventually sub. If you disagree, cool, but none of the arguments outlining why things were ostensibly better for users pre-R21 convince, affect or bother me personally... 

Fine.

If you don´t care - I do.

If you can live with it - live.

Good luck.

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I have the feeling some people have to be reminded that *adding* the option of subscription is a good thing.

 

The huge problem here is everything thats taken away from Studio-MSA owners —> the future perpetual-licensees. People like me (MSA Studio) are royally effed in a number of ways. I’m happy for students who can now go in with a subscription to wet their feet. I’m happy for those who don’t mind ~100$/month rent because they need Cinema 4D for only 2–3 months. (and by the way, I also don’t care about Prime MSA owners getting a mayor update for the same price. Although I’m not sure they’ll be happy after the first two years are over.)

 

I, as a MSA-customer with Studio feel treated extremely bad by MAXON. I know, I’ll get R21 with my current MSA. But there must be changes made to some decisions within this next year or I will need to make changes after R21 (that maybe slowly migrating to other packages, while using R20/R21 as long as they run).

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5 hours ago, BoganTW said:

It's now nearly 20 years later and MAXON and C4D are massively bigger. So I'm not expecting them to close up shop within the next ten years in a hurry to be honest.

 

Just to be sure nobody thinks that’s the abstract fear people who want to buy perpetual have with online-activation. The problem is not MAXON closing shop but deciding to not activate perpetual licences after 3 years anymore, just because – you know – pushing customers to upgrade or subscribe etc. This particular problem boils down to: In the future, even if you buy perpetual, MAXON controls if you’re allowed to use your license.

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