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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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25 minutes ago, renegade said:

But if I was on a deadline and this nonsense occurred we would be in serious trouble - can't tell the client, gee, can't work on your job because of some glitch in the MAXON server.

 

I just thought how NOT funny this was. A reason I hate subscriptions - and a real world reminder that these problems do occur. But the 'whole world' will be happy! (can't stand that puerile tagline)

 

We know how important it is that you always have access to Cinema 4D, and we've been careful to select solutions that we (and you) can rely on for both service and security.

 

Is it the 'whole world' part you object to, or the 'real world' part? Honestly the 'whole world' was an easy tweak to highlight the changes in pricing and our efforts to make 3D more affordable and accessible. The concept of '3D for the Real World' is - as Dave explained in his keynote - much more than a tagline. It really is the way we think about our products and the guiding principle behind our approach to the market. Dave shared several aspects of this in his keynote, and soon we'll be expanding more on this concept and providing a bit more detail on the various ways '3D for the Real World' influences our strategy and decisions.

 

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1 hour ago, Raischub said:

I just find a comment about Cinemas new Subscription mode on the site of an GER-Software-Reseller. It´s " Software3d dot de"

 

I wouldn't put much credence into any of that. It's pure speculation and many things they say are simply not true.

 

I've had the pleasure of being part of MAXON for 20 years, and as I said repeatedly I've never worked harder and never been more satisfied with my work. As a team, we're more focused than ever on delivering incredible power and value to our users. We've had a few folks leave - which is natural in any organization especially when there's a change in leadership, but most of us 'old-timers' (including the founding programmers) are not just still around, but a key part of both daily and strategic decisions.

 

We have a great relationship with Nemetschek, and they love having us as part of their portfolio. I'm sure they have a real passion for architecture and the stuff they do - but imagine you had to sit around all day listening to people talk about BIM and the structural integrity of bridges and somebody showed up to talk about how the end credits for Into the Spiderverse were created. We're an exciting company to have around - not because of our product - but because of what you all do with our product. And Nemetschek - like us - want to continue to give you the best tools possible to create. That's evident in the support they gave us in acquiring Redshift earlier this year.

 

One thing I will say is as a company we're taking really big bites - completing our first acquisition and putting together this subscription plan are just the obvious ones - but there's been lots of good stuff happening behind the scenes as well. We've all been really busy, and I know I haven't had as much time this year as I'd like to connect with users. I know I'll be making more efforts to do that in the second half of the year.

 

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4 hours ago, RBarrett said:

 

MAXON will offer perpetual upgrades, as it says in the FAQ.

 

I can't give you a specific answer at this point as to when those upgrades will be offered, what they will cost or what they will be called, because as it states in the FAQ those details aren't yet fully defined. We'll have more communication on that going forward, based on development progress and customer feedback.

 

As to how long perpetual upgrades will continue to be offered - we're taking our cues from the userbase on that. You seem to assume the fact that we haven't announced an end date is a signal they're ending, but it's more clearly a signal that they'll be continuing. It means we haven't predetermined a sunset date for perpetual - or even that there will be a sunset date. We're still selling perpetual licenses - they're right there next to the subscription option. The only comments otherwise are conjecture.

 

OK. If I take the official explanations in the FAQ as a basis: There is no talk of a version 22 Perpetual. No promise. No guarantee.
In other words, it remains nebulous. It's up to MAXON.
At least MAXON does not want to guarantee that there is a version 22 Perpetual - it depends on how many users are going into a subscription's dependency, right? How many money MAXON will make till next year?
And ... If I look at the parallels to Adobe: Of course there was never any talk of a sunset date.
(Funny you named it the date of sunset - after sunset, darkness follows)
OK: That's actually all I wanted to know (and I think many others).
So thank you, too, for not answering one of my questions directly (a MAXON user since one can buy Cinema, I'm taking the cd with the panther.)
I wrote that post before reading your last comment - so this edited

 

Thank you.

 

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8 hours ago, RBarrett said:

 

I wouldn't put much credence into any of that. It's pure speculation and many things they say are simply not true.

 

I've had the pleasure of being part of MAXON for 20 years, and as I said repeatedly I've never worked harder and never been more satisfied with my work. As a team, we're more focused than ever on delivering incredible power and value to our users. We've had a few folks leave - which is natural in any organization especially when there's a change in leadership, but most of us 'old-timers' (including the founding programmers) are not just still around, but a key part of both daily and strategic decisions.

 

We have a great relationship with Nemetschek, and they love having us as part of their portfolio. I'm sure they have a real passion for architecture and the stuff they do - but imagine you had to sit around all day listening to people talk about BIM and the structural integrity of bridges and somebody showed up to talk about how the end credits for Into the Spiderverse were created. We're an exciting company to have around - not because of our product - but because of what you all do with our product. And Nemetschek - like us - want to continue to give you the best tools possible to create. That's evident in the support they gave us in acquiring Redshift earlier this year.

 

One thing I will say is as a company we're taking really big bites - completing our first acquisition and putting together this subscription plan are just the obvious ones - but there's been lots of good stuff happening behind the scenes as well. We've all been really busy, and I know I haven't had as much time this year as I'd like to connect with users. I know I'll be making more efforts to do that in the second half of the year.

 

 

Speculation or not: what can I be sure about?
Some of the statements I see myself or consider the developments likely.
See it from my side.
It is the job of MAXON to eliminate these doubts.

 

As I said before, I know few (if not all) software manufacturers that have convinced me more in the past than MAXON.
Every suggestion for improvement was taken seriously.
Each question meticulously and (really) answered with much love.
A big praise to the past - honestly.
I have praised you, MAXON, in forums over and over again, as an example of how to do it.
And would not I come to see that I am in a situation where my work (which I am passionately doing) would be in danger of becoming useless, one day I can not open my own data - my anger would not be there.


Nothing against any of you - the people who designed and made MAXON big.
But it's the same here as with Adobe:
There is a course setting from above and the thing gets a new face.
I loved the software from Adobe earlier. Especially Photoshop.
Even though I never liked the company that much. Adobe was never comparable to MAXON.


But from day to tomorrow, I did not even want to see their program logos popping up anymore.
Subscription is like living on the nod for me. How to lease cars. Short thought.
It does not make anything cheaper - it creates dependency and is therefore not fair (in my eyes).
Who earns money with professional software, the acquisition cost of a few thousand €/$ are not a question.

(even prices are absolutely not my concern)
Subscription also wants to catch those who wish and are happy to have access at all.
But at the same time it takes my safety.
The security of being able to decide myself tomorrow (Upgrade or not? Change Software or not? ...).
The certainty that I have paid for what I use.
And the security of opening my customer files whenever I want.
(Even in bad times, if they come)

I have to invest in PlugIns - in the knowledge that i down´t own anything.

If there is a better competition tomorrow I would have to pay both (if I want to use my old files). 


You are surely in the future, the human great team. But you have the misfortune to be in a company that is more and more oriented towards profit and efficiency. A train of time. But rarely in terms of users and quality.


Adobe has more than proven where useful features end with that model.
Even the stock market price has now reached the factor of 1000% since CC.
Revenues have more than doubled
(For those who believe renting is cheaper: with nearly the same number of registered licenses (125%) than before cash cow (CC) 2012).
Believe me, I do not think the team changed at MAXON. Although I find it sad how the founders were removed.
But I do not believe in the strategy behind the subscription model.

Lastly:
I will not rent software as long as there are alternatives.

No matter if its MAXON or whatever.
Having said all that, I see the time has come to replace a software I love very much.
And all the plugins I bought and learned.
Yes, really, it hurts me. Deeply.

But again: Nothing against you - it's about the decision to make MAXON to what is now announced.

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10 hours ago, RBarrett said:

 

MAXON will offer perpetual upgrades, as it says in the FAQ.

 

I can't give you a specific answer at this point as to when those upgrades will be offered, what they will cost or what they will be called, because as it states in the FAQ those details aren't yet fully defined. We'll have more communication on that going forward, based on development progress and customer feedback.

 

As to how long perpetual upgrades will continue to be offered - we're taking our cues from the userbase on that. You seem to assume the fact that we haven't announced an end date is a signal they're ending, but it's more clearly a signal that they'll be continuing. It means we haven't predetermined a sunset date for perpetual - or even that there will be a sunset date. We're still selling perpetual licenses - they're right there next to the subscription option. The only comments otherwise are conjecture.

 

Please Rick by all means, tell your bosses to KEEP a perpetual license upgrade path, and  at a fair price (not 900$ like I read here or there). This will ease all tensions. Subs will help recruit new users and generate a steady stream of cash for MAXON. It will be a win win for everybody. 

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12 hours ago, Adrien said:

Please Rick by all means, tell your bosses to KEEP a perpetual license upgrade path, and  at a fair price (not 900$ like I read here or there). This will ease all tensions. Subs will help recruit new users and generate a steady stream of cash for MAXON. It will be a win win for everybody. 

 

This is the point exactly. I’ve just started using C4D and one month ago invested £3,700 including VAT in R20 and the MSA. At the time of purchase I understood that I was buying into the MSA which would a) let me own the software and b) allow me to upgrade at a price I could afford, for as long as I could afford to.

 

Now, one month later, the game has changed and I feel MAXON miss-sold C4D to me meaning that I will have effectively paid over £3,000 to use C4D as a complete beginner (only following basic tutorials) for two months.

 

When I heard about the subscription announcement, I went on line, read what I could and was amazed there was no commitment regarding perpetual licences. How can a company spend a year planning a change, come out with their big announcement, and not have made a clear decision regarding their long term customers and their perpetual licences? I felt cheated.

 

MAXON: you just took my money under the pretence that I was buying into the MSA (an upgrade stream) and that my soft wear would be worth something. The move to subscription means that both these points are not true as the subscription requires no buy in and the fact it even exits, completely devalues the software I own.

 

Anyway, my point is that for everyone who has already invested into C4D and the MSA upgrade stream, we should be allowed to continue upgrading at the same price as subscribers because: a) we have already paid thousands to buy into C4D, b) the subscription is a similar price to the MSA, and c) the MSA/upgrade option is what was sold to us at the time of purchase - which for me was four weeks ago.

 

MAXON, if you don’t get it;  perpetual licence holders have already invested in buying into your product, now please let us upgrade our perpetual licences yearly at the same price as the subscription. Otherwise, I feel at the time of my purchase, one month ago, C4D was miss-sold to me and as a consumer, I have a case to ask for my money back. 

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1 hour ago, HiFly said:

I felt cheated.

As a longterm c4d user and one-time MAXON enthusiast...I'll offer an apology on behalf of a company that now lacks the soul to offer it: "I'm truly sorry. I have failed on an epic scale....and in an ethical sense as well."

 

But you won't get that from the bright new shining "We are the world" MAXON. Because really...what they mean is..."We are your wallet."

 

But hey...they do offer R21, which may shatter all your plugins...but does feature new bevels and a shiny new splash screen! Who could turn that down?

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When MSA´s will end next year (as contract form) for perpetual licencies owners, I´m surprised why is offered discount only for subscription road if nothing changed for future in perpetual licencies offer? I would expect for example some discount for upgrading licence to new perpetual version, especially for long time users instead of pushing them to subscription... 

 

I still live with fact the perpetual licencies are in offer and will stay for future in offer...

 

(btw, long time users/customers looks like just a phrase in these days of business)

 

 

 

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Hi Rick,

 

as you can't make a statement about MAXON's future strategy.

Maybe you can tell us something about the reasons for the current strategy.

 

MAXON has decided to end the existing MSA and introduce a rental option as the only renewing option.

 

What advantages does MAXON hope to gain from a rental license over an MSA?

 

I am asking this, because I can't understand why MAXON is alienating its MSA customers, even though they produced a steady stream of income (which at the time was the communicated reason for the MSA)

 

thanks a lot

Jops

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16 hours ago, RBarrett said:

 

MAXON will offer perpetual upgrades, as it says in the FAQ.

 

I can't give you a specific answer at this point as to when those upgrades will be offered, what they will cost or what they will be called, because as it states in the FAQ those details aren't yet fully defined. We'll have more communication on that going forward, based on development progress and customer feedback.

 

As to how long perpetual upgrades will continue to be offered - we're taking our cues from the userbase on that. You seem to assume the fact that we haven't announced an end date is a signal they're ending, but it's more clearly a signal that they'll be continuing. It means we haven't predetermined a sunset date for perpetual - or even that there will be a sunset date. We're still selling perpetual licenses - they're right there next to the subscription option. The only comments otherwise are conjecture.

 

Thanks for the underlines, had already checked them out. Again, they only refer to R21.  Sorry, this is still not a clear, unambiguous answer about any post-R21 commitment but we're going round in circles so I give up, will stop asking. If MAXON is really going to take cues form the userbase and not just from a business decision, I've been your user base since R6 and MSA since it started, won't ever be renting software, so yes please, keep perpetual available. Still holding a little hope that this isn't Adobe all over again but not really being given much comfort here.  

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9 hours ago, Jops said:

as you can't make a statement about MAXON's future strategy.

Maybe you can tell us something about the reasons for the current strategy.

 

Sure Jops -

 

The main reason for introducing the subscription option is that we talk to a lot of folks that really want to use Cinema 4D, but were scared off by or simply couldn't afford the initial investment of almost $4000. The steep entry price was preventing new customers from joining the C4D community, and a big, healthy Cinema 4D community benefits all of us. There's also been a huge demand for subscription - even from current customers, and we were seeing this in the success of the short-term license program.

 

A big part of our effort here is reducing the confusion and decisions customers have to make when they want to hop on board - that's why we've eliminated all the editions (which very few folks took advantage of) and why we're only presenting 5 options on the MAXON.net buy page. In truth it would be really hard on multiple fronts for us to offer two separate recurring options, and historically MSA has been administered differently, and the implementation and policies differed wildly by region. 

 

So really it comes down to clarity and consistency.

 

And really for users who have been and continue to have an active MSA nothing has changed yet - you'll get R21 perpetual and you'll have Cineversity for the duration of your MSA. When we announce the next perpetual release you'll have the opportunity to upgrade. I can't say what the price will be, but I also can't say what the price for your next MSA renewal would've been. We do indeed need to sort out a reasonable option for perpetual folks to continue accessing Cineversity after their MSA expires - we missed that detail prior to announcement and we're working to sort it out.

 

 

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I just hope this really does speed up development and there are some good things coming.  I know I keep saying it, but I stilll can't believe that xpresso hasn't been updated. The software seems disjointed with new nodes not talking to xpresso. I don't have too much of a problem with a subscription.   I do have a problem with the treatment of studio MSA customers.  Who in their right mind is going to take that %20 deal and lose their perpetual license.  Especially for those like me who have an MSA up in August, it really doesn't make any sense.  I have two weeks to decide.

 

And again I'll say it... just imagine the amount of new users you'd get if you offered $59.99 a month with a year contract.

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