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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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15 hours ago, Icecaveman said:

 

Smooth talking BS. You seriously gonna shovel that? The Reality: Your team thought through the entire plan with your consultants well in advance. The initiative was finely calibrated to pressure customers towards subscriptions.

 

We customers should feel grateful that our previous investment in the product funded the stiff consultancy fees for agencies such as this: http://www.thebigwheelconsultancy.com/

 

Analytics, Customer psychology...it's a true art form these days. Give them their due, these consultants are CLEVER. The game now is customer manipulation over product improvement.

Craig,

 

Stop sweet talking it...tell us how you really think!

 

Wow...interesting site.  I love how they list their benefits as: "proven ways to grow your subscriber numbers, membership base or customer lifetime value"

 

So it is an "or" condition?  You can't grow your subscriber numbers AND maximize customer lifetime value?

 

I guess not.  Well, we can guess which option MAXON selected.

 

Dave

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13 hours ago, HiFly said:

Hi Rick

 

As a new user, who just invested £3,700 in R20 Studio; Cineversity access is not my main concern. I've looked at it, it's a nice extra, but for me, it's a non-issue compared to the more significant conversation. To me, the MSA was a right to upgrade my software at a reduced price each year.

 

I phoned MAXON this week who said if there is a perpetual upgrade path to R22 it will be more expensive than the subscription. 

 

In my opinion, what needs sorting is perpetual licences.

 

Especially a commitment to the fact that perpetual licence holders should be able to continue upgrading their licences at the same price, or less than a subscription.

 

Yeah.  If we assume that the cost to upgrade from R21 perpetual to R22 perpetual is $999, then that is a 53% price increase in two years.  $280 increase to get R22 over what I would pay this year to get R21....but only because I still have an active MSA program. 

 

Now...if Prime users opt for the perpetual option at $250 this year, then they are also signing up to pay 4 times more than what they used to pay via their Prime MSA program for the R22 perpetual upgrade.  Now that is a big jump.

 

So the user base for C4D users are going to boil down to three classes of people:

 

1) People who are not afraid of being locked into subscriptions if they want to have access to their files.  They've accepted it, don't fear it and are pretty much confident that paying $720 in perpetuity is just a fine way to go until they decide to leave C4D or 3D forever.

2) People who love C4D more than they hate subscriptions and agree to the outrageous price increases for perpetual licenses.

3) People who have just lost all faith in MAXON and that anger over this "new" MAXON forces them to go somewhere else.

 

So which group do you think MAXON is placing existing C4D users in?

 

Which group do you think MAXON is placing new users in?

 

...and most importantly (as I really don't care what MAXON perceives at this point)….

 

….Which group do you think will make up the majority of C4D users in 3 years?

 

Dave

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53 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

 

 

….Which group do you think will make up the majority of C4D users in 3 years?

 

 

I think they are full of the rah-rah subscriber kool-aid right now. It's actually delusional. They think they're Adobe, but as I said before, MAXON is not Adobe. 1.) 3D software is very niche, unlike most Adobe offerings which offer you a suite most people can figure out how to use very quickly for MUCH less money. 2.) Adobe actually charges a true month to month fee (not a yearly that is $750+ US lump sum). 3.) There are many competitive 3D apps for less, and in the case of blender, free. 4.) Just read how one company who bought some full C4D Studio seats are going to go back to Maya as it is cheaper and they feel ripped off by this new plan. 5.) MAXON broke all the plugins, again - and after they did it in r20. 6.) Did I mention niche? This is not software everyone can use - it takes years to get fast enough at it to make money - and really, how much demand is there for 3D? A huge number can justify photoshop, or indesign or premiere, or illustrator.

 

This year i think they'll get a user spike. Which may last thru a second year - and then fall off. And in 3 years I bet MAXON will be running around with their hair on fire, trying to shore up a truly dedicated user base (like they have now), as many companies fall of the subscription wagon, or reduce the number of seats they maintain. I feel sorry for MAXON if they had some fast-talking consultants come and give them a pitch, promising huge cash windfalls. And really, I think there is some serious delusional thinking at the top of the pyramid. The road is littered with apps that once had it all and then got co-opted by the 'planning' of brain-dead MBA's.

 

Suggestion: Keep the MSA for those who paid full price. And you can still offer the subscription options. This isn't rocket science to program something like this - it's just a database ultimately. And no one will be upset if you do this. Hell, very few people outside of the 3D world have even heard of Cinema 4D. I asked a bunch friends of mine (not in the biz) and they've never even heard the name. 

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1 hour ago, renegade said:

They think they're Adobe, but as I said before, MAXON is not Adobe. 1.) 3D software is very niche, unlike most Adobe offerings which offer you a suite most people can figure out how to use very quickly for MUCH less money. 2.) Adobe actually charges a true month to month fee (not a yearly that is $750+ US lump sum). 3.) There are many competitive 3D apps for less, and in the case of blender, free. 4.) Just read how one company who bought some full C4D Studio seats are going to go back to Maya as it is cheaper and they feel ripped off by this new plan. 5.) MAXON broke all the plugins, again - and after they did it in r20. 6.) Did I mention niche? This is not software everyone can use - it takes years to get fast enough at it to make money - and really, how much demand is there for 3D? A huge number can justify photoshop, or indesign or premiere, or illustrator.

 

Just curious why people keep comparing MAXON to Adobe? That is correct, MAXON is not Adobe.  Why not compare C4D with Maya, Max, Modo etc... IE compare MAXON to Autodesk, or The Foundry.

 

 Just had a look now and Maya is $297 NZD here per month, C4D will be ~$100 NZD I think (60 euros). Both Autodesk and MAXON are offering perpetual licences.  

 

Modo subscription is $599 USD a year (or $931 NZD) or about $77 NZD a month.  And they also offer a perpetual.

 

Even Substances is $99 USD a month for a subscription. Thats more than C4D just for texturing! And it's not even part of Adobe CC.

 

They all have a monthly fee which can be paid annually with a discount. Or you can pay the pure monthly amount which is slightly more. 

 

And from my past experience Maya broke every plugin every release as well.  C4D was a rare gem where they were able to keep the plugins compatible for so long. This was done through extensive effort on their part, but meant they couldn't change much under the hood. Now they are updating all the internal code, and the SDKs to give plugin developers more features and power, so things change.

 

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1 hour ago, renegade said:

Suggestion: Keep the MSA for those who paid full price. And you can still offer the subscription options. This isn't rocket science to program something like this - it's just a database ultimately. And no one will be upset if you do this. Hell, very few people outside of the 3D world have even heard of Cinema 4D. I asked a bunch friends of mine (not in the biz) and they've never even heard the name. 

 

From what I have read you can still buy an update for your perpetual licence. So this is effectively the same as the MSA. So if you have C4D Studio already, you get the next perpetual update every year. Prime, Broadcast and Visualize customers will have to pay more now though since they get Studio essentially. But other than that it seems pretty similar to me.

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22 minutes ago, kbar said:

Even Substances is $99 USD a month for a subscription.

 

If you refer to the Allegorithmic products...this isn't correct. Not even close. Maybe you are talking about something else.

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11 minutes ago, kbar said:

 

From what I have read you can still buy an update for your perpetual licence. So this is effectively the same as the MSA. So if you have C4D Studio already, you get the next perpetual update every year. Prime, Broadcast and Visualize customers will have to pay more now though since they get Studio essentially. But other than that it seems pretty similar to me.

 

Perpetual pricing, per a MAXON sales rep...was going up to something north of $900 per year.

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14 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

 

If you refer to the Allegorithmic products...this isn't correct. Not even close. Maybe you are talking about something else.

 

If you earn over 100k, need a Pro licence then its definitely 99 USD a month. https://www.substance3d.com/buy/pro

 

I still don't know if companies like this consider the revenue what you earn from their software or just what you personally earn per year or not though. 

 

The company name Allegorithmic doesn't exist anymore. Which is why I just said substance :)

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7 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

 

Perpetual pricing, per a MAXON sales rep...was going up to something north of $900 per year.

 

I haven't talked to my local distributor yet about this. But if that's true then, and assuming that is USD, for me that's an additional $500 NZD a year for perpetual. I have already paid my MSA for this year so doesn't matter too much for me for now. But next year I would have to sell a few more plugins to keep in the game. I like to keep perpetual around so I can do builds and updates for older versions, so can't go just with subscription. 

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after stewing it over for several days, even with the thought of getting R21 studio for cost of my Prime MSA, I came to the conclusion that in the long run it just is not viable for me to stick with C4D. I will not renew my MSA, keep R20 prime loaded on my PC and continue my journey in Houdini.  One of the big factors with sticking with Houdini is it has a water/sand simulator as well as really good particles and pyro without the need of $$ plugins. Modeling tools are coming along but Houdinis bread and butter is FX and thus their focus but they do see people are clambering for modeling tools and they are working on them. Their support is terrific, even on weekends you can get email answers.

 

I wish MAXON well and hope this works out for them, truly I do. 

Peace

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