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Maxon Subscribtion Plan Discussions

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10 hours ago, hikarubr said:

 

The difference is that Cinema4D NEEDS plugins to do stuff that Maya does out of the box. Particles? You need X-Particles. Fire? TurbulanceFD. Fluids? Realflow. Proper UVs? Seamilar II. GPU Render? Octane or Redshift.

 

But Maya does all of that out of the box, no plugins needed. So, yeah, it is more important for Cinema 4D to not break plugins than for Maya.

 

So doesn’t Blender do all this without plugins....for $0 per month or (if you don’t like subscriptions) or for $0 for the perpetual license.  And you can either pay $0 a month or the slightly higher fee of $0 annually for the perpetual license as well.  Unfortunately, the perpetual license needs to connect to the license server 0 times every 14 days to stay active.

 

You just gotta love 0!

 

Dave

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1 hour ago, kbar said:

 How? There are two prices on this page both shown in their monthly amounts so that you can compare the difference.

 

https://www.MAXON.net/en/buy/

 

Is it perhaps that they are asking you to be billed annually? Would you rather it said billed monthly but you have to lock in for 12 months? Just wondering what it is about the wording that has people so fired about about it. I see exactly the same thing everywhere for almost every other subscription based software. Even my car insurance is billed annually but quoted as monthly to indicate the savings I make. So does my gym.  

 

Is it that it seems you need to pay the lump sum annually in one go? Rather than being split up over 12 payments?

 

Or is it the price?

Il try to shed some light on what I see could be the issue.   Someone I was talking to recently was quite excited to have access to subscription as his perpetual was too far behind to upgrade.  He was excited at the price that is actually billed annually, but thought it was a monthly payment.  As soon as I corrected him this instantly changed the affordability for him.  This was just after the announcement was made.  The website makes it very clear as to whats Monthly and what is Annually.  I think its possible that for many the initial expectation before the site was updated was that one could rent C4D out for what we now know to be billed annually.

At the live announcement it was said the subscription will be $59 per month, with a yearly commitment.   This commitment I guess was not translated as meaning billed annually.  Then only moments later it was cleared up,  $59.99 for 365 days, 1 year, and $94.99 Monthly, 30 days.  What was missing here was the total yearly amount under the yearly price up as only the monthly figure was shown,.  Once people started to settle a bit and thought about it a little longer thats when clarity came, you have to pay up front, and the monthly figure was only a breakdown number, not the actual separate payments one was hoping for.  If your not a student and are a new user and want to jump on it at $94.99 this maybe too steep when your going to be learning it, not actually getting much use out of it initially.  longer trials are needed, and a indie solution is needed.

 

Other than the above mentioned I cant see the issue here, its made clear, if its not affordable to the world, then over the next year the figures will reflect this.  As to the other issues brought up, thats something else, and the lack of all the details at hand gave time for speculation to arise, the absence of obvious details what should have been available had escalated anger rightly or wrongly.

 

What is factual is MAXON has not set a upgrade price for perpetual licences from r22 onward.  Confusion of this years upgrade cost  still remains for some.  The upgrade costs for Studio users who did not get a MSA is the same this year as last year, that has not changed, please correct me if Im wrong.  You cant compare the upgrade costs against a MSA this year because MSA is still offered until end of August this year.  Just because the upgrade costs this year remains the same, this does not mean its the same for r22 as by then there will be no MSA.  I even got confused by this a little.  As many complained about loosing Cineversity, MAXON have now chosen to re think this for next year based on the feedback they have got, so until we see the actual figures for next year lets not assume anything on that.

 

Enough said on this I think, Iv got productive  things to do in C4D, and life, lets at least give MAXON a chance to refine things, and get us a perpetual price for r22 and Cineversity..

 

Dan

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Rectro said:

...lets at least give MAXON a chance to refine things, and get us a perpetual price for r22 and Cineversity..

Dan

 

I do hope they take the feedback into account for R22 pricing, but I'm not expecting it.

 

On the automated quote I've received by email - and I'm a R20 Studio user with MSA - in the UK:

 

My final year of MSA will be a similar price to last year - that's OK (although the R21 upgrade doesn't offer me very much).

 

But they also quote other options including a R20 to R21 Perpetual upgrade without an exisiting MSA. This will be the state all perpetual users will be in 12 months from now. That's quoted at £799 (ex VAT). If that pricing is maintained for the R21-R22 upgrade, that will represent a 52% increase in annual cost.

 

What MAXON didn't say at SIGGRAPH was that the new 'lower cost of acquisition' would lead to a significantly higher on-going cost for many of us.

 

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So a couple of things that I wonder about as we try to navigate these very messy waters:

 

  1. MAXON made a major change to their whole pricing model and absolutely messed up the communications on it.  Didn't they try their pitch on a test audience of select users ahead of time, collect the questions, listen to the concerns, and adjust?  That is just good marketing when making a change of this significance.   Or did they just persist by living in their own echo chamber, refusing to take outside input and challenge to their own views on their new business model.   
  2. Building on Point 1, if the new culture of the new MAXON is to NOT adjust based on market response, then business history has shown they will have a short life span. Companies bigger than them have gone under very fast by refusing to listen to their customers and/or see the macro shifts going on around them (eg. Kodak, Lucent, etc).  
  3. Blender 2.8 is a macro shift in the market that MAXON needs to pay attention to.  Big companies like Ubisoft, etc. are making huge donations to the Blender Foundation.  If the MAXON leadership team is feeling secure about the strength and purity of their new core or that they won a technical Oscar award, then they are again living in their own echo chamber.  Core means nothing to the user unless they can see it in the features.  Feeling proud that some modeling features are now under the influence of the new core?  Well don't expect the user to do back flips over faster extrudes.  What they really want is Bodypaint being updated to this century.  Step out of your echo chamber because that thunder you hear behind you is Blender coming up fast. It may not be pretty by your standards, but it has a building momentum in the race while you are slowing down.
  4. There is some evidence that the heat generated over the absolutely mis-guided release of their new subscription model is changing some of their thinking.  For example they are re-thinking Cineversity for perpetual license holders.  I mean that alone is proof that they were not listening to anyone but themselves prior to the R21 announcement.   Other proof is that the new features in  R21 have very little to drive people to stay with C4D.  If they were listening to the users, they would have made a decision to delay announcing subscriptions until a future release provided must have features like massive object handling, gpu rendering, full multi-threaded implementation across all aspects of the program, and a Bodypaint release that elevated it to best of breed status.  
  5. So what became of the world tour announced at Siggraph?  Didn't they talk about a 27 city tour?  I have not heard anything about that since.  Could it be that they were once again living in their own echo chamber thinking that the world would reach out to them with loving arms over the subscription plan?  That they would be greeted as heroes wherever they went?  Did our anger temper their hubris a bit?  Good.

So MAXON, please step out of your echo chamber.  Start listening...and more importantly prove that you are listening.  Even your defense of the new subscription model proves that you are still living in your own echo chamber because those arguments are all about how much better this is for MAXON: "It was really hard to maintain MSA licenses for 5 versions of C4D".....oh boo hoo for you.

 

Kodak, Polaroid, Lucent....give a big warm welcome to MAXON.

 

Dave

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MikeA said:

 

I do hope they take the feedback into account for R22 pricing, but I'm not expecting it.

 

On the automated quote I've received by email - and I'm a R20 Studio user with MSA - in the UK:

 

My final year of MSA will be a similar price to last year - that's fine. (although the R21 upgrade doesn't offer me very much).

 

But they also quote other options including a R20 to R21 Perpetual upgrade without an exisiting MSA. This will be the state all perpetual users will be in 12 months from now. That's quoted at £799 (ex VAT). If that pricing is maintained for the R21-R22 upgrade, that will represent a 52% increase in annual cost.

 

What MAXON didn't say at SIGGRAPH was that the new 'lower cost of acquisition' would lead to a significantly higher cost of on-going use for many of us.

 

Yes I was quoted £799 plus vat for a upgrade, or £525 for a MSA.  This is the same as last year.  The upgrade pricing has always been there as a more expensive alternative to the MSA, as such makes the MSA seem very good value given it had Cineversity with it.  Being that next year MSA is not in place I cant see how they can ask the current upgrade pricing given the cheaper option has been removed,  I doubt they will do that. 

At worse I think it could be slightly higher than the MSA when you add what ever option they will add for Cineversity, I hope not.  While this may be the case, or not, for the fact that the new Subscriptions are laid out, there is now higher expectations of what is going to be offered throughout the year  for Subscribers.   This will give perpetual licence holders a peek at whats to come to make a more informed decisions if to upgrade.  This should also avoid a build up of higher expectations every year at Siggraph.  Should we start to see a influx of bigger, and much asked for features due to subscriptions mean while users can still keep the perpetual licences at a  reasonable cost and get a look ahead of whats to come things maybe not so bad for perpetual owners.

 

Dan

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Dan - I hope you're right.

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1 hour ago, MikeA said:

Dan - I hope you're right.

The way I try to look at things are If I really dont know how something is going to turn and its  out of my control, it could go either way, so I rest on hope once I have tried to find the answers first.  While Im waiting Im not emotionally working myself up fearing the worse when it could well not happen.

 

Now if the worse does happen I deal with it then, Iv still saved myself a year of complaining, worrying about something I cant control, but maybe take that time to consider my options.  If the worse case does not happen then Im thankful I didn't waste time and energy worrying.  I know its easier said than done but its much better for the sole in trying to look at the glass half full, even if everyone else is saying otherwise.  

 

So while there are many questions unsolved, until then Iv got to crack on, get something done with my time, and spend time making something happen that is in my control.  Help other people, get that job done, spend time with kids, family, turn the computer off  maybe.

 

Dan

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Yes, I think that's a good approach. Enjoy the rest of your weekend : )

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18 hours ago, kbar said:

 

Yes I did the same with Adobe when I needed it. I got a discount by agreeing to lock into 1 year and my monthly amount worked out at $70 per month vs $120 if I paid monthly. So does it really matter? Are you intending on only using Cinema 4D for just 1 month? Do you only want to pay for every second month? If your intending on using it for a full year then get the discount and pay the 61.47 euros a month. If not then you can pay purely on an ad-hoc monthly basis and pay $104.54 euros per month. Its up to you and when you need a licence. 

 

I just don't see what all the uproar is with regards to the argument about the monthly not being monthly. If you don't need it for a few months they go pure monthly. All depends on what you want to use C4D for. Better than shelling out over $3500 bucks when your not even sure if you will use it for a couple of weeks.

 

Not a fair comparison.

 

If you agree to Adobe's discounted, 1-yr contract you pay on a monthly basis—not one, lump sum. Not so with MAXON's Annual Subscription; where the price is displayed with a monthly figure ($59 [USD]).

 

This is why people are upset.

 

If pricing was $59 / mo, billed monthly (i.e. month-to-month)... they might be on to something [good, for many people / "the world"]. (Heck, throw in Redshift at $59 / mo and people would, probably, be quite excited! :smiley-greet008:)

 

In reality, your price nearly doubles once you go from Annual to Monthly Sub.

 

--

 

I, personally, refuse to subscribe, going forward, and can't stand the 14-day "call-in", either. This is why I am not planning to upgrade, in any form, including Perpetual. (Too bad for INSYDIUM, Next Limit and other companies, too!) I have never pirated MAXON's software, nor have I ever violated their license agreement. I just don't like the "new way". (And, I fully understand the flexibility of it, too.)

 

I don't like how MAXON has handled this announcement—at all. (Which stinks, because I can only guess how much work goes into an annual event / release like this. I feel like the pricing and offerings are not consistent with what they're marketing.)

 

I have been a long-time customer of MAXON. (More than a decade, now!) But, I'm feeling pretty upset for people that purchased a full, Studio license in the months leading up to SIGGRAPH—in addition to the long-time customers / supporters / MSA subscribers / etc. :sad:

 

--

 

We're all just giving our opinions. (Some are more factually-based than others. Ha-ha. :wackywink::lol:)

 

Just trying to make sense of all of this—even though I have made other plans, moving forward. (Not sure whether to be angry or grateful, at this point. :306: I guess I don't fit their ideal customer profile any longer.)

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