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What would drive you to subscriptions?

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This topic is purely for Studio owners ONLY.  We are the ones feeling the pain the most as we pay the most and get the least benefit in this new subscription program.  You want to make a MAXON representative dance and sputter: call them up and ask them to explain why everyone else pays less then what you pay for an R21  perpetual license.  They do their best, they hate the discussion and my heart goes out to them but that is the situation their management has put them in (let's not forget that).

 

Okay...back to the topic.

 

If you are like me, the whole discussion on MAXON's new subscription program is giving me a headache.  But that happens after 40 pages of posts...and I am pretty confident that not everyone fully understands every conceivable permutation of license management that can exist for everyone.  Honestly, sometimes it feel like trying to absorb a new set of government tax codes.

 

But in all that confusion, the general consensus remains the same:  MAXON is forcing you to subscriptions.  Regardless of what they say about perpetual licenses, we all still have that perception.

 

...and nobody likes to be forced to do anything.  

 

So I thought I would open up a topic from a different angle: What would make you love subscriptions as a Studio owner?  I ask because honestly, I think MAXON is going to take it the shorts on this whole plan.  They most likely have spoken to Adobe and got level set on the plan that Year 1 they lose money, Year 2 they break even and Year 3 onward they are in fat city.

 

But Adobe has more products than MAXON.  For the same money, Creative Cloud gives you a whole suite of products whereas MAXON only gives you C4D (remember that Redshift is extra).  I am not sure how much of their user base is made up of single seat Studio owners (be they professional or hobbyist), but I would imagine it is not trivial. 

 

So what happens when that large based on Prime, Visualize and Broadcast single seat license owners jump into Studio, pay the $720 a year and realize ..... hey....I was kind of happy with my $250 MSA because there are a lot of features in Studio that I just DO NOT USE.  Now I am paying $720 a year (and all at once mind you) and I am not using all those new features. 

 

Honestly, if you were that good with C4D such that you consumed EVERY feature of Prime, Visualize or Broadcast, you would be using 

Studio now anyway.  That is what happens when your skill starts to be limited by the tool...you get a new tool.

 

But if your skill is NOT progressing with the lower platform versions, especially as a hobbyist, then you probably are not going to be using all the features of C4D Studio on a regular basis as well.  You will default to what you know and using the program that way (it is human nature).  Ultimately, you will realize that all that has changed is that you  are paying more now per year for the same benefit.....and so you stop the subscription.  

 

Now, Adobe could weather that transition because if people aren't getting as much from After Effects as they hoped, they could jump to Photoshop, or Illustrator.  There are 20 apps that you can choose from so pretty confident that they could find something that fits with what they want to do.  Plus they offer cloud storage too!  And they bill monthly!  

 

Imagine now if MAXON had acquired Allegorithmic rather than Adobe.  Imagine if MAXON's "creative cloud" included C4D, Redshift, Substance Painter, Substance Designer, etc.  Imagine if you had access to Substance Store as well? All for the same cost?  Imagine if over time MAXON started to acquire Insydium, 3D Quakers, GSG.  Imagine if for one cost (billed monthly) you got a good portion of what is today the C4D eco-system of plugin developers, model makers, and tutorial developers.

 

You might feel differently about selling your soul to MAXON.  But alas, they do not have a creative cloud.  By comparison to Adobe, they barely have a Creative Raindrop.

 

Of course, if Insydium ever ported X-Particles to Blender,  I would not stick around long enough to see what happens.  After all, no one likes  to be forced to do anything.

 

So what would make you love MAXON's Subscription program?

 

Dave

 

 


Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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1. i would love it if it was cheaper, so you'd have to pay less a year than current msa.

2. i would love it if they made it a rent-to-own model.

3. i would love it if it results in development pace going up.

 

since 1 and 2 are not going to happen, my hopes are on 3.

 

many people in the past have stated that subscription kills the need for innovation, slows development down and name adobe as an example, but (A) i don't recall development pace at adobe being any better before they went CC, and (B) it's not comparable since adobe had monopoly at several fronts, which isn't the case with c4d, competition is there and it's strong.

 

 

 

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I'm not sure I fully understand what the perpetual upgrade price would be for the different versions.

What I understand is

Studio R19 to R20 Studio is $995

Studio R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Prime R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Visualize R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Broadcast R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Buy R21 Perpetual new 3567 €

 

If they have R21 Perpetual as a new license I'm not sure why they would not offer an upgrade price to everyone one of the old versions to the R21 Perpetual license.

Maybe someone who has called MAXON or someone that works there can clear up what is going on?

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Redshift integrated into C4D, like Arnold with Maya, also... a beefier update, because why are we going into subscription if we dont have features because the devs are waiting for the new core? what are we paying for?

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4 hours ago, Fastbee said:

I'm not sure I fully understand what the perpetual upgrade price would be for the different versions.

What I understand is

Studio R19 to R20 Studio is $995

Studio R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Prime R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Visualize R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Broadcast R20 to R21 Studio is $???

Buy R21 Perpetual new 3567 €

 

If they have R21 Perpetual as a new license I'm not sure why they would not offer an upgrade price to everyone one of the old versions to the R21 Perpetual license.

Maybe someone who has called MAXON or someone that works there can clear up what is going on?

if they are on msa they can extend it for a year and so get r21 perpetual for the price of their current msa. i remember reading it also can be extended 2 years and you’ll also get r22 for the price of current msa, but i don’t remember where i read this and if this is actually true. if they are not on msa they all have to pay full perpetual upgrade for r21, which i believe is also somewhat around the 995$ mark. no matter which version they owned before. 

 

edit: that’s my current understanding of things, but i was wrong before, so no guarantee...

 

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2 minutes ago, everfresh said:

if they are on msa they can extend it for a year and so get r21 perpetual for the price of their current msa. i remember reading it also can be extended 2 years and you’ll also get r22 for the price of current msa, but i don’t remember where i read this and if this is actually true. if they are not on msa they all have to pay full perpetual upgrade for r21, which i believe is also somewhat around the 995$ mark. no matter which version they owned before.

If we can skip as many version as we like then pay $995 to get the latest version this would not be a bad deal.  If they ever add enough I can decide to upgrade at that time to the current version.

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8 minutes ago, Fastbee said:

If we can skip as many version as we like then pay $995 to get the latest version this would not be a bad deal.  If they ever add enough I can decide to upgrade at that time to the current version.

not sure if there will be penalties for skipped versions like there was before.

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I'm not anti subscription per-se. But it really needs to be the full package. No way should I be paying extra for a 3rd party renderer or 3rd party UV tools on top. And that's absolutely necessary right now.

Access to a C4D renderfarm/storage. And Rs material libraries/revamped training etc in one place would be a good start too.

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Right now it's unclear of the benefits to owning a perpetual license. Unless the upgrade cost beyond R21 is cheap and there are no penalties for skipping a model then I would choose perpetual. But right now it's cheaper to go with a subscription.

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There is something strange about the subscription and perpetual model. I have been informed by my local MAXON agent, that ones you choose the subscription model, you loose your perpetual license (i believe from R21 onwards). I am doubting this information as does my local MAXON agent and they and i myself contacted MAXON directly to clarify this. Hopefully next week i will here more on this. So it looks like a choice between perpetual (and going to pay for upgrades) or subscription. If i renew my MSA (for the last time before the end of august) i get R21 perpetual, but when i move to subscription (in august 2020) i wil loose my perpetual R21 license. That doesn't seem right. Perpetual does mean it never expires (for that particular version). I hope to hear more on this form MAXON.

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According to information provided by MAXON on Reddit (r/CInema4D) even the perceptual license is just a subscription (the license needs to reactivate over the Internet regularly.)  Basically it's paying much more upfront and *not* getting the same benefits (regular feature updates, cineversity access, etc.), but still suffer all the same drawbacks.

 

See: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/cjujk2/maxon_announces_cinema_4d_release_21/evlbxxk/

 

There's no guarantee this perceptual license will work forever. Which means both options are no win for the customer who's looking for a secure long time guarantee, privacy, and the option to work w/o Internet access.

 

I'm still with R16 here (just a hobby for me); saving up money for quite some while to finally buy a proper update, but with such conditions it's rather unlikely to happen. This is just so disappointing in so many ways. Blender starts to look like the only valid option for the long run. :(

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1 hour ago, marco bezoet de bie said:

...If i renew my MSA (for the last time before the end of august) i get R21 perpetual, but when i move to subscription (in august 2020) i wil loose my perpetual R21 license. That doesn't seem right. Perpetual does mean it never expires (for that particular version). I hope to hear more on this form MAXON.

 

Not exactly but sort of. But MAXON confirmed in the Siggraph thread that:

 

***

When you take MAXONs offer for the reduced price 2 year special offer subscription for MSA owners, then you CONVERT to subscription, you'll loose your perpetual Studio license.

 

You can subscribe separately for the full price and then you don't loose the perpetual license.

***

 

I don't think many individuals that read / understand the license terms would do that, I'm certainly not giving up my perpetual Studio license.

 

What would motivate (not drive) me into a Cinema subscription is

- a massively reduced price Cinema Indie Studio license (I'm a hobbyist) will full features, maybe render limitation to 4k

- honest pricing (not calling a yearly upfront lump sum to be a monthly subscription)

- integrated Redshift (I already have a perpetual RS license but an additional seat won't hurt)

- kick-@ss features, XPresso and RS materials in new node system, rebuilt UV and Bodypaint toolset

- improved particle system or integrated X-Particles

- improved modeling tools that don't require the various Nitro4D plugins and HB modeling bundle anymore

- additional workflow improvements like seen in R21

- a RT viewport like Eevee

 

One issue I have with the new licensing system is that it will break all the plugins again, now that most of them finally work in R20 (also thanks to the Insydium bridge). Also I feel bad for plugin developers because people with rental software most likely don't want to invest in plugins. I spent more than the Studio price in plugins and render engines for Cinema and would certainly not do that for rental or online activated software.

 

And MAXON still keeps silent about what happens to Teamrender node licenses which were unlimited in Studio until now.

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