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3D-Pangel

What would drive you to subscriptions?

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4 minutes ago, Marander said:

 

Not exactly but sort of. But MAXON confirmed in the Siggraph thread that:

 

***

When you take MAXONs offer for the reduced price 2 year special offer subscription for MSA owners, then you CONVERT to subscription, you'll loose your perpetual Studio license.

 

You can subscribe separately for the full price and then you don't loose the perpetual license.

***

 

 

Thanks @Marander for the info. It is good to know that by taking the reduced 2 year special offer i will loose my perpetual studio license (then R21). So i keep my R20 license. However MAXON is on their info page regarding subscriptions not clear on this, they state "perpetual"  "never expires". It should read "perpetual, never expires, until you switch to subscription". 

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I have found a clear answer on this post (siggraph posts) 

 

In short, you loose perpetual (R21) by converting to subscription (when new version R22 arrives) 

What you can do is not converting from perpetual R21, but going for a new subscription R22 and onwards. This way you do not loose your perpetual R21 (and not having to pay anymore), and from R22 and onwards you go with the subscription model. 

 

I my case, my MSA R20 expires end of august, the best choice is renew (for the last time my MSA) and get perpetual R21.

From R22 (august 2020) i will take a new subscription (R22) or take a conversion for two year subscription (R22 and R23) with a 20% discount (but loose my R21 perpetual. I then still have my R20 perpetual.  

 

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If what is being said about the subscriptions is true MAXON is throwing dynamite onto a burning boat.  Blender 2.8 just came out compounds the mistake.  Huge companies are moving to Blender it is so good right now.  With large companies the companies said they were going to develop and release the new tools they make for Blender.  This will further increase the rate at which Blender improves.  Blender is also about to get node based particles and 2x faster rendering in Cycles with RTX.

 

In addition MAXON have reduced the new features in each releases to almost nothing.  If anything they should be reducing the price of C4D to apologize for the lack of features in each release for the last 5 years.

 

I'd say they will lose at least half their user base if this is true.  I know I'm not giving them another dime.  I'm not going to buy plugins for subscription software I don't own.  They are ruining their own income stream as well as all the plugin developer's income.  I'm going to keep R19 and maybe go for the cycles, xparticles updates till I become an expert with blender.  I do feel bad for Insydium.  They are going to lose so many people.  If they sold xparticles for Blender I'd buy that.

 

To keep me C4D would have to either make a $995 flat upgrade price to the latest version from any other version or have a low cost indie license for those making under $100k.

 

For those that want to understandably jump off the burning boat here is a video that shows a rising island off the coast of your burning boat.

 

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Hi,

 

Rant incoming! :)

 

As a long time Studio user (10 years) I'm not impressed with this move at all. I'm about as impressed as I was when Adobe did it and I dumped them immediately.

 

Has MAXON HQ has lost the plot? Forcing your users into a subscription model is a really ugly thing (ransom basically) and taking your perpetual license away that you have invested in for years is just a d_ck move.

 

The one thing that has really irked me is that as a Studio user if I want to upgrade my MSA before Aug 31st it's going to cost me £300 more than a Prime MSA user to get the same R21 version. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it seems. The next year when I'm forced into subscription I essentially have my perpetual R21 license taken away that I just paid for.

 

Here's another worrying thing.

 

The MAXON Service Agreement entitles you to any new perpetual releases within the term of your MSA contract. This does not include access to subscription-only releases.

 

So if I don't have a subscription your going to limit my updates to R21 under MSA? What now? Isn't that kind of a bullying tactic? I hope I'm wrong about this. Anyone have any info on that?

 

MAXON seems to think it's in the position that Adobe was in (no competition) when it pulled this move. Unfortunately for MAXON C4D has a lot of competition, competition that is way ahead of the game too. The fact that one of the most fundamental aspects of the 3D workflow (UV mapping) has hardly been touched for 10 years says a lot. Seriously, the only new modelling tool in 4 years has been the Pen Tool!! Jeez! In 4 years when the new UV stuff appears they'll be selling it like some new miracle invention! :)

 

It's all too little too late for me and I'm fed up with it. R21 seems to just be an exercise in locking you in to the subscription loop. Why can't users have a choice? The MSA isn't any different to subscription for MAXON so why can't they keep that as an option for users that want to retain a perpetual license. I'll tell you why... because there's no fear you can't access your work if you have a perpetual license. 

 

Subscription is no cheaper for long time users (it's actually increased) so for us it isn't '3D for the World'!! That's Blender folks!! New users now just enter above MSA prices and don't have to fork out £3500 like we did. A monthly cost looks cheaper on paper but it isn't. Do the math on your MSA price vs subscription. Sure you'll get a year discount on it but after that? Another thing that bothers me is the 'influencers' (barf) shouting the new subscription model is the saviour of 3D when they all probably have NFRs and don't pay anything. *shakes fist* LOL

 

I know MAXON has the mograph game sewn up and rightly so. It's the best in show for that and you can't knock it. It's what they live off. My interests don't fall into that sphere though. Modelling is my primary objective in C4D and I've invested a lot of time (and money) getting to a point with C4D's toolset (hell, I even wrote MILG11 to help other people try and get there too) and that toolset is now behind the curve for the price.

 

I'm probably just going to dump MAXON and move to Blender 2.8 which with the right addons is pretty great for modelling. This also has its problems as Blender 2.8 supports neither OpenCL or Metal on Mac 10.14 with Cycles and might never! I'd rather deal with that though than be bullied into a subscription model by MAXON though. I have a feeling most of the casual users and hobbyists might jump ship this time and that's a lot of users I'd imagine. Looks like 3DKiwi had the right idea! :)

 

I'd really love to stay with C4D because of one thing... I know it inside out. Perhaps I should get over that! :)  Feels like I'm off to a funeral. :(

 

Tob

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9 minutes ago, tobywan said:

Here's another worrying thing.

 

The MAXON Service Agreement entitles you to any new perpetual releases within the term of your MSA contract. This does not include access to subscription-only releases.

 

So if I don't have a subscription your going to limit my updates to R21 under MSA? What now? Isn't that kind of a bullying tactic? I hope I'm wrong about this. Anyone have any info on that?

 

this has been clarified a couple of times now by various people.

it just means that people on subscriptions will get mid cycle feature updates (no one knows how many times that might be throughout a year yet), but perpetual license holders will have to wait until the next full release to get access to those features. everyone gets the same, just at a different time. and of course perpetual license holders will get their bugfix updates in between, just as usual, they just have to wait a little longer to be able to play with new features that subscribers can play with immediately.

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I wonder if MAXON have held off announcing even more features that will come out a few months into the release of R21 to tempt a higher conversion rate. I know that's what I'd do. 

 

There's a few things I'm hoping will be clarified by my reseller in September around the actual cost and options before making a decision on what to do.

 

Looking forward to the R21.0 perpetual at least.

 

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17 hours ago, tobywan said:

I'm probably just going to dump MAXON and move to Blender 2.8 which with the right addons is pretty great for modelling. This also has its problems as Blender 2.8 supports neither OpenCL or Metal on Mac 10.14 with Cycles and might never!

Look up HardOps and Boxcutter.  These two addons for Blender look particularly amazing for modeling in Blender.  For retopology Retopoflow.

 

Mac GPUs don't work in Blender Cycles anymore because Mac got rid of support for OpenCL.  Blender still supports OpenCL.  In windows you can use a AMD or Nvidia card with Cycles.  This means Cycles supports OpenCL.  I think Cycles can still render CPU only with Mac.  With RTX support coming to Cycles Nvidia is the only way to go in my mind.  The speed and electricity savings are so high with that over CPU or AMD.  Render faster with less electricity.  It's a win win.  No GPU render engine supports Metal right now.

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  • On 8/10/2019 at 5:27 AM, marco bezoet de bie said:

    There is something strange about the subscription and perpetual model. I have been informed by my local MAXON agent, that ones you choose the subscription model, you loose your perpetual license (i believe from R21 onwards). I am doubting this information as does my local MAXON agent and they and i myself contacted MAXON directly to clarify this. Hopefully next week i will here more on this. So it looks like a choice between perpetual (and going to pay for upgrades) or subscription. If i renew my MSA (for the last time before the end of august) i get R21 perpetual, but when i move to subscription (in august 2020) i wil loose my perpetual R21 license. That doesn't seem right. Perpetual does mean it never expires (for that particular version). I hope to hear more on this form MAXON.

    I have asked for this before and I ask for it again...

     

    We need to see the R21 Perpetual EULA (end-user license agreement) to fully understand our rights prior to making any purchase.  That is the legally binding document that defines exactly what we are buying.

     

    I also have asked my MAXON rep about what exactly is "perpetual" and can "perpetual" ever be PERMANENTLY  taken away should I decide to switch to a subscription for a short period of time.  No clear answer or they answer part of the question such as "Yes....while you are using the subscription your perpetual license will not work".    They never discuss what happens after the subscription ends.

     

    BUT LET'S BE CLEAR:  What I am asking is will my "perpetual license" be re-activated should I decide to no longer renew my subscription.

     

    Again....still more clear in the hopes that there is NO way a MAXON representative can answer the wrong question:  Consider the following situation:

     

    Year 2020:  Little Johnny has purchased or upgraded to an R21 perpetual license.

    Year 2021: Little Johnny signs up for the 12 month subscription plan to use R22 via the subscription plan for the 2021 year but decides NOT to continue his subscription in 2022.

    Year 2022: Little Johnny has NO SUBSCRIPTION PLAN and no access to R22.

     

    And now the big question:  Will Little Johnny still be able to use his R21 perpetual license in 2022 under these circumstances?

     

    Not sure why this is such a tough question to answer but along with everything else that is going on, it is the inability to answer direct questions like these with equal directness that is killing our trust in the company...

     

    ...well...actually....that trust died 3 nano seconds after Dave McGarver started talking at Siggraph.  Actually avoiding this question is taking the trust that was already killed, throwing it into an oil drum, setting it on fire, and pushing it off a cliff into a hydraulic car crusher.

     

    Something like that...but you get the point.

     

    So can someone from MAXON please answer the question directly. 

     

    ...and when you do....

     

    Please leave out the lengthy preamble about how arduous it was for MAXON employees to manage all those licenses, or how the EU laws prohibit MAXON from not only understanding direct questions but reading them alone without the presence of their lawyers, or how so much better licensing is for everybody, especially MAXON's accounting team.

     

    ...oh...and get us a copy of the EULA...I have access to some lawyers too...they live for this type of stuff and tell me that marketing something called "perpetual" has a very narrow legal definition.

    perpetual.JPG.0450a5d6c6997a60e351ba211afd5691.JPG

     

    Thanks and have a nice day,

     

    Dave


    Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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    Dave, my take on this is you will be able to continue using R21 forever even if you stop handing over money to MAXON. However you will probably need to connect the internet regularly for it to update its licence (or get the special arrangement with MAXON for an offline licence). If you have a current an active subscription then you get to run whatever the current version is at the time. When you stop handing over money you revert back to your last perpetual licence version.

     

    My other take on things is MAXON expects to lose a few customers. Their logic is those not taking up subscriptions will be offset by new customers. Probably what I would do is bash on using R21 and then if and when they bring out a decent new version, then start giving them money again for a subscription. That may or may not be R22. The one certain thing I would be doing is not giving them any more of my money until I was happy with what was being offered to me. 

     

    Cheers

    Nigel / 3DKiwi

     

     

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    The only way id ever subscribe would be on a rent to own basis.  This is on the reasoning that C4D to me is not just a business tool, but its a personal tool set for my own creative outlet, it serves both purposes.  Owning to me is a long term commitment, renting is a temporary one.

     

    The only way id subscribe is when something is temporary in use, or it was way too expensive to purchase outright like a house.  Id rent a movie for a night, rent a car to cover a short period, rent a house or flat,  but software no thanks.

     

    I have no issue with any company adding rental system to whats currently on offer, what I do have a problem with is removing or adjusting other options that remove benefits to the current user base that once where in place in order to redirect users to benefit the company outlined plans while pertaining that changes are for the benefit of its user base. 

     

    I think the wise choice for MAXON to make right now is to be very careful how much they will charge for perpetual upgrades after r21.  Given that they are looking for ways for perpetual owners to keep Cineversity it does show they are willing to adjust for their user base, lets hope the upgrade price with Cineversity plans reflects this also.  Of course this should have been in place right from the announcement but id imagine that things where significantly more complicated from a business point of view as to why it had to be at Siggraph, Im sure they where well aware.

     

    When Vray4C4D was handed over to Chaosgoup it was portrayed as a good news, this came as a huge disappointment to me, many where kicked out of their perpetual software for future versions of C4D from r21 onwards, and the choices that where in place was not realistic for all its users  (rental), Chaosgoup certainly caused me some Chaos, I lost my render engine thank you very much. Redshift was my alternitive, but while it certainly is faster at the cost of under a grand for a GFX card upgrade, it certainly dont offer what Vray gave me, so still I await Randomwalk to replace Alsurface.  When I hear the chime bells of rental it makes me on edge as I know very well first hand how it can pan out, lets hope MAXON tries to keep the balance that was there because this was one of the reasons I came to C4D in the first place.

     

     

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    17 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

    BUT LET'S BE CLEAR:  What I am asking is will my "perpetual license" be re-activated should I decide to no longer renew my subscription.

     

    Again....still more clear in the hopes that there is NO way a MAXON representative can answer the wrong question:  Consider the following situation:

     

    Year 2020:  Little Johnny has purchased or upgraded to an R21 perpetual license.

    Year 2021: Little Johnny signs up for the 12 month subscription plan to use R22 via the subscription plan for the 2021 year but decides NOT to continue his subscription in 2022.

    Year 2022: Little Johnny has NO SUBSCRIPTION PLAN and no access to R22.

     

    And now the big question:  Will Little Johnny still be able to use his R21 perpetual license in 2022 under these circumstances?

     

    Not sure why this is such a tough question to answer but along with everything else that is going on, it is the inability to answer direct questions like these with equal directness that is killing our trust in the company...

     

    So can someone from MAXON please answer the question directly. 

     

    I've answered that and many other questions directly. Honestly a big part of the problem is we've got multiple threads (including this new one) going on multiple forums, and I can't even find the answers I know I've posted anymore because there's over 1000 posts spread out all over the internet.

     

    If Little Johnny has a perpetual R21 and later signs up for the 12 month subscription plan, he'll see two licenses in his MyMaxon account - an R21 perpetual license with 'unlimited' as the end date and a subscription entitlement with a specific end date. Both licenses can be used - so effectively two machines can be activated at the same time. When the subscription ends, the R21 perpetual will still be there.

     

    If Little Johnny has an active MSA and takes advantage of the discounted 2-year offer to convert to subscription, his perpetual license will no longer appear in his MyMaxon account. He'll be able to use Cinema 4D for as long as he maintains his subscription. If at some point the subscription ends, he'll lose access to Cinema 4D. The perpetual won't be restored.

     

    I've asked, and the updated EULA is supposed to go up on the website soon.

     

    - Rick

     

     

     

     

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    12 minutes ago, RBarrett said:

    If Little Johnny has a perpetual R21 and later signs up for the 12 month subscription plan, he'll see two licenses in his MyMaxon account - an R21 perpetual license with 'unlimited' as the end date and a subscription entitlement with a specific end date. Both licenses can be used - so effectively two machines can be activated at the same time. When the subscription ends, the R21 perpetual will still be there.

    This I assume will only happen if a user has 2 or more people working on the same project at the same time as he would be paying his yearly upgrade for his perpetual licence, plus subscription, I cant see any other reason why anyone would rent if they already own a perpetual licence.  

     

    I am still trying to work out why anyone would want to give their 3k licence up for a 2 year discount?  Even if MAXON was to offer the first 2 years of rental for free that still wouldn't pay for the value of a perpetual licence?  Maybe Im missing something on this?

     

    Dan

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