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Amazing facial rig


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28 minutes ago, Fastbee said:

There is no love for C4D because MAXON does not put any love into their character animation.  This makes it a horrible pain to make character animation happen.  As was stated there is probably a lot of xpresso to get it to happen.  That xpresso then makes it almost impossible to render on a farm because of the way xpresso is handled.  The problems compile into a mess that no one can navigate to make a decent end product.

 

To make a long story short use Blender.  Get the Skin Selection plugin.  Enjoy making some great facial animations because you don't have to struggling to get the tool working the way it should.  If you like character animation then Auto-Rig Pro will save your life.  It does way more then auto rigging.  It also has a built in retargeter that works, built in export to fbx, it's basically a must have for any character animator in Blender.

 i‘m using complex facial rigs in production, it works perfectly, also for rendering on farms.  a lot of xpresso involved. i‘m not experiencing that mess you‘re talking about at all.  xpresso is a good thing, it allows you to create complex dependencies you just can‘t get with constraints alone.

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also i find it somewhat offensive to say that no one can make a decent end product. it feels more like YOU can't make a decent end product, and you're blaming c4d for it. here's one example of what i'd consider a decent end product, i can show you a lot more if you insist. 

 

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I'm gonna speak from my own experience. I always wanted to create an advanced rig. I just managed to do that past month using Blender. I found a lot of resources to do that (its also very cheap but qualitative). If someone has a lot of experience or is tech savvy can always figure things out in any software. Every software has its strengths and weaknesses. Aside from the software., availaible resources also play an important role. I still consider myself a beginner and I need (comprehensive) training and courses that go beyond the basics. You can find some stuff for cinema 4d but If I want to create an advanced tig as above (not as complex) then I need to look at other software training or video's (like maya) but it is possible. I also find rigging and weighting more fun in blender and less painful than cinema 4d. Also not dealing with priority constraints is awesome.

 

I'm not saying one software is generally better than the other. It just depends on what you want to do. I just find some aspects easier as explained above. Like I still use mograph and x-particles. It's just easy and fun to use.

 

Just my two cents

 

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true. the lack of character rigging learning resources is by far the biggest issue with c4d. no doubt blender has a big advantage in this regard, also not having to deal with priorities is a huge plus. but i'd argue that in general creating a complex face rig is similarly difficult in any software package. the same principles apply everywhere, just the tools are different. some tools are better in package X, some better in package Y, you need to find workarounds to overcome the weaknesses of certain tools, blender doesn't seem to be any different in that regard. 

 

like everybody else i'm really impressed by blenders progress, in a lot of areas it's far ahead these days. what bothers me though is that obnoxious evangelism, especially from former c4d users, who surprisingly still hang around suspiciously much at c4d forums. saying blender is good is one thing, saying blender is better at everything and everything else is bullsh..t is just wrong and also a little bit annoying.

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26 minutes ago, everfresh said:

true. the lack of character rigging learning resources is by far the biggest issue with c4d. no doubt blender has a big advantage in this regard, also not having to deal with priorities is a huge plus. but i'd argue that in general creating a complex face rig is similarly difficult in any software package. the same principles apply everywhere, just the tools are different. some tools are better in package X, some better in package Y, you need to find workarounds to overcome the weaknesses of certain tools, blender doesn't seem to be any different in that regard. 

 

like everybody else i'm really impressed by blenders progress, in a lot of areas it's far ahead these days. what bothers me though is that obnoxious evangelism, especially from former c4d users, who surprisingly still hang around suspiciously much at c4d forums. saying blender is good is one thing, saying blender is better at everything and everything else is bullsh..t is just wrong and also a little bit annoying.

Yeah def agree. 

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4 hours ago, Fastbee said:

There is no love for C4D because MAXON does not put any love into their character animation.  This makes it a horrible pain to make character animation happen.  As was stated there is probably a lot of xpresso to get it to happen.  That xpresso then makes it almost impossible to render on a farm because of the way xpresso is handled.  The problems compile into a mess that no one can navigate to make a decent end product.

 

To make a long story short use Blender.  Get the Skin Selection plugin.  Enjoy making some great facial animations because you don't have to struggling to get the tool working the way it should.  If you like character animation then Auto-Rig Pro will save your life.  It does way more then auto rigging.  It also has a built in retargeter that works, built in export to fbx, it's basically a must have for any character animator in Blender.

I think this is not very productive to this discussion man...
I love all the input and experience you are bringing regarding Blender on the Blender topic. 
(I even bookmarked those videos you shared) 
But yeah, this discussion is more regarding C4D facial rig tutorials, etc..  and even though I know there arent, unfortunately, many good rigging tutorials for the software.. I dont think turning this into a software war will help anything..

If you see what guys like Everfresh, Orestis and others are producing with the software, you would know that these things are possible within C4D. Just, unfortunately, there isnt much information regarding these how to achieve these results around... not even paid tutorials. (I reached out Orestis for a specific tutorial on a procedural landscape just a few days ago, but unfortunately, couldnt find any other resource)

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4 hours ago, everfresh said:

also i find it somewhat offensive to say that no one can make a decent end product. it feels more like YOU can't make a decent end product, and you're blaming c4d for it. here's one example of what i'd consider a decent end product, i can show you a lot more if you insist. 

 

You call that decent?

 

Seriously?

 

I call it amazing. 

 

That was done in C4D?  I never would have thought that level of cartoon squash and stretch was possible with our rigging tools. Very fluid with impeccable comic timing.

 

Bravo! 

 

Many thanks to the team at Bomper Studio for changing the paradigm about C4D's character animation capabilities.

 

Dave

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2 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

You call that decent?

 

Seriously?

 

I call it amazing. 

 

That was done in C4D?  I never would have thought that level of cartoon squash and stretch was possible with our rigging tools. Very fluid with impeccable comic timing.

 

Bravo! 

 

Many thanks to the team at Bomper Studio for changing the paradigm about C4D's character animation capabilities.

 

Dave

c4ds rigging tools are much more capable than most people think! we do have a few limitations because of how our object system works, but most things that can be done in maya can be done in c4d as well.

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2 hours ago, everfresh said:

like everybody else i'm really impressed by blenders progress, in a lot of areas it's far ahead these days. what bothers me though is that obnoxious evangelism, especially from former c4d users, who surprisingly still hang around suspiciously much at c4d forums. saying blender is good is one thing, saying blender is better at everything and everything else is bullsh..t is just wrong and also a little bit annoying.

I feel the need to explain my Avatar then -- "Blender Gives us Options".  I am not a Blender evangelist but changed my previous Avatar (I think it was a picture of me and John Knoll) when MAXON announced their subscription plan and hiked prices again.  I have nothing but admiration for the developers, project managers and the software quality team (the unsung heroes of the MAXON corporation).  But as a hobbyist, I fear that MAXON's subscription program and higher cost of perpetual licenses over the previous MSA program is hurting the hobbyist.  This did not sit well with me as a loyal Studio user for the past 10 years.  The hobbyist wants to own the software whereas the commercial user wants to lease it and their pricing programs favor the commercial user.  Therefore, MAXON has forgotten us and/or taken us for granted.  So the point of the Avatar is to serve a reminder that MAXON should NOT take any customer for granted because Blender is becoming a force in the industry.  

 

For me, C4D is on a tremendous trajectory and I  am excited about its future.  I just hope I can afford to be part of it.

 

Dave

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7 hours ago, Fastbee said:

There is no love for C4D because MAXON does not put any love into their character animation.  This makes it a horrible pain to make character animation happen.  As was stated there is probably a lot of xpresso to get it to happen.  That xpresso then makes it almost impossible to render on a farm because of the way xpresso is handled.  The problems compile into a mess that no one can navigate to make a decent end product.

 

To make a long story short use Blender.  Get the Skin Selection plugin.  Enjoy making some great facial animations because you don't have to struggling to get the tool working the way it should.  If you like character animation then Auto-Rig Pro will save your life.  It does way more then auto rigging.  It also has a built in retargeter that works, built in export to fbx, it's basically a must have for any character animator in Blender.

 

thank you for mentioning Blender and those plugins. i'll check them out. i've been watching and following some Blender tutorials. Do you know of any good (Blender) tuts or courses for Facial Rigging? i've found a few but if you can recommend any, i'd appreciate it.

 

It looks like for a beginner like me, other software is the way to go for facial rigging. i know that it's possible to create complex rigs in C4D, but that seems to be limited to those who have a lot of experience with it and who know how to work around its limitations. the Blender interface and user experience is not bad. it's not Cinema - which just feels like home, but it's doable. thanks again!

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On 8/23/2019 at 9:24 PM, Frokito said:

Shoutouts to people who do character work in Cinema 4D, especially to Kangddan. Check out this rig!

 

 Kangddan actualy made a tutorial, in Chinese and got somehere halfway translating it. Haven't read anything about it since november 15 last year when "Victory was at hand"EJbn7NJUcAEKQiY.thumb.jpg.c20321cb990b63d6dddeb83f1b0939c0.jpg

 

 

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13 hours ago, everfresh said:

also i find it somewhat offensive to say that no one can make a decent end product. it feels more like YOU can't make a decent end product, and you're blaming c4d for it. here's one example of what i'd consider a decent end product, i can show you a lot more if you insist. 

 

Please talk about how details like, how long it took to render this, how many computers were needed to render, the hardware in each computer, if you exported the character to alembic before rendering, a picture of the xpresso nodes would be great, how many hours you took to do one second of animation, how many different cuts this was rendered in because C4D bones start taking forever a long time to update the longer the animation goes on, how many years you spent learning how to make that rig in the first place, what version of C4D was used, what render engine was used, etc.

 

Amazing work, but I think you did it in spite of C4D.  Where there is a will there is a way kind of thing.  Even you have to admit there are other programs better for character animation.  I am curious if you tried character animation in Blender, Auto Rig Pro, and what you thought of them?

 

The way re-targeting is done in Auto Rig Pro is enough to make me switch to Blender.  Not having a ton of additional stuff with xpresso like in the C4D auto rig is also really nice.  Being able to scale the character with the joints and not have it freak out is great.  Being able to render without a node doing preparation to render as it chugs through xpresso for 24 hours is great.  Not having to use a farm at all because Eevee is so good is great.  Having the 3Dcoat plugin actually work is great.  12 years ago C4D character animation was great.  Problem is they haven't done much to improve character animation for 12 years when R11 brought NLA.  Exporting to an animation FBX was only possible for a long time thanks to the late great Cactus Dan.  There is too much to mention.  If you haven't tried Blender I see how you could be so upset.  If you have tried Blender you only get upset with yourself for staying with C4D for so long.

 

7 hours ago, kikomesh said:

 

thank you for mentioning Blender and those plugins. i'll check them out. i've been watching and following some Blender tutorials. Do you know of any good (Blender) tuts or courses for Facial Rigging? i've found a few but if you can recommend any, i'd appreciate it.

 

It looks like for a beginner like me, other software is the way to go for facial rigging. i know that it's possible to create complex rigs in C4D, but that seems to be limited to those who have a lot of experience with it and who know how to work around its limitations. the Blender interface and user experience is not bad. it's not Cinema - which just feels like home, but it's doable. thanks again!

Look at the video for Auto Rig Pro.  It makes it so easy it's a 5 min. video on how to make a full rig including one for the face.  If you have problems after that I'd say go to the Blender forums where I'll answer your questions if your questions have not already been answered first by someone else in the huge blender community.  The Skin Selection plugin is also pretty straight forward to use.  Assign the controller or bone to the mesh selection you want it to be associated with.

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