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Frokito

Amazing facial rig

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2 hours ago, everfresh said:

like everybody else i'm really impressed by blenders progress, in a lot of areas it's far ahead these days. what bothers me though is that obnoxious evangelism, especially from former c4d users, who surprisingly still hang around suspiciously much at c4d forums. saying blender is good is one thing, saying blender is better at everything and everything else is bullsh..t is just wrong and also a little bit annoying.

I feel the need to explain my Avatar then -- "Blender Gives us Options".  I am not a Blender evangelist but changed my previous Avatar (I think it was a picture of me and John Knoll) when MAXON announced their subscription plan and hiked prices again.  I have nothing but admiration for the developers, project managers and the software quality team (the unsung heroes of the MAXON corporation).  But as a hobbyist, I fear that MAXON's subscription program and higher cost of perpetual licenses over the previous MSA program is hurting the hobbyist.  This did not sit well with me as a loyal Studio user for the past 10 years.  The hobbyist wants to own the software whereas the commercial user wants to lease it and their pricing programs favor the commercial user.  Therefore, MAXON has forgotten us and/or taken us for granted.  So the point of the Avatar is to serve a reminder that MAXON should NOT take any customer for granted because Blender is becoming a force in the industry.  

 

For me, C4D is on a tremendous trajectory and I  am excited about its future.  I just hope I can afford to be part of it.

 

Dave

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7 hours ago, Fastbee said:

There is no love for C4D because MAXON does not put any love into their character animation.  This makes it a horrible pain to make character animation happen.  As was stated there is probably a lot of xpresso to get it to happen.  That xpresso then makes it almost impossible to render on a farm because of the way xpresso is handled.  The problems compile into a mess that no one can navigate to make a decent end product.

 

To make a long story short use Blender.  Get the Skin Selection plugin.  Enjoy making some great facial animations because you don't have to struggling to get the tool working the way it should.  If you like character animation then Auto-Rig Pro will save your life.  It does way more then auto rigging.  It also has a built in retargeter that works, built in export to fbx, it's basically a must have for any character animator in Blender.

 

thank you for mentioning Blender and those plugins. i'll check them out. i've been watching and following some Blender tutorials. Do you know of any good (Blender) tuts or courses for Facial Rigging? i've found a few but if you can recommend any, i'd appreciate it.

 

It looks like for a beginner like me, other software is the way to go for facial rigging. i know that it's possible to create complex rigs in C4D, but that seems to be limited to those who have a lot of experience with it and who know how to work around its limitations. the Blender interface and user experience is not bad. it's not Cinema - which just feels like home, but it's doable. thanks again!

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On 8/23/2019 at 9:24 PM, Frokito said:

Shoutouts to people who do character work in Cinema 4D, especially to Kangddan. Check out this rig!

 

 Kangddan actualy made a tutorial, in Chinese and got somehere halfway translating it. Haven't read anything about it since november 15 last year when "Victory was at hand"EJbn7NJUcAEKQiY.thumb.jpg.c20321cb990b63d6dddeb83f1b0939c0.jpg

 

 

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13 hours ago, everfresh said:

also i find it somewhat offensive to say that no one can make a decent end product. it feels more like YOU can't make a decent end product, and you're blaming c4d for it. here's one example of what i'd consider a decent end product, i can show you a lot more if you insist. 

 

Please talk about how details like, how long it took to render this, how many computers were needed to render, the hardware in each computer, if you exported the character to alembic before rendering, a picture of the xpresso nodes would be great, how many hours you took to do one second of animation, how many different cuts this was rendered in because C4D bones start taking forever a long time to update the longer the animation goes on, how many years you spent learning how to make that rig in the first place, what version of C4D was used, what render engine was used, etc.

 

Amazing work, but I think you did it in spite of C4D.  Where there is a will there is a way kind of thing.  Even you have to admit there are other programs better for character animation.  I am curious if you tried character animation in Blender, Auto Rig Pro, and what you thought of them?

 

The way re-targeting is done in Auto Rig Pro is enough to make me switch to Blender.  Not having a ton of additional stuff with xpresso like in the C4D auto rig is also really nice.  Being able to scale the character with the joints and not have it freak out is great.  Being able to render without a node doing preparation to render as it chugs through xpresso for 24 hours is great.  Not having to use a farm at all because Eevee is so good is great.  Having the 3Dcoat plugin actually work is great.  12 years ago C4D character animation was great.  Problem is they haven't done much to improve character animation for 12 years when R11 brought NLA.  Exporting to an animation FBX was only possible for a long time thanks to the late great Cactus Dan.  There is too much to mention.  If you haven't tried Blender I see how you could be so upset.  If you have tried Blender you only get upset with yourself for staying with C4D for so long.

 

7 hours ago, kikomesh said:

 

thank you for mentioning Blender and those plugins. i'll check them out. i've been watching and following some Blender tutorials. Do you know of any good (Blender) tuts or courses for Facial Rigging? i've found a few but if you can recommend any, i'd appreciate it.

 

It looks like for a beginner like me, other software is the way to go for facial rigging. i know that it's possible to create complex rigs in C4D, but that seems to be limited to those who have a lot of experience with it and who know how to work around its limitations. the Blender interface and user experience is not bad. it's not Cinema - which just feels like home, but it's doable. thanks again!

Look at the video for Auto Rig Pro.  It makes it so easy it's a 5 min. video on how to make a full rig including one for the face.  If you have problems after that I'd say go to the Blender forums where I'll answer your questions if your questions have not already been answered first by someone else in the huge blender community.  The Skin Selection plugin is also pretty straight forward to use.  Assign the controller or bone to the mesh selection you want it to be associated with.

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51 minutes ago, Fastbee said:

Please talk about how details like, how long it took to render this, how many computers were needed to render, the hardware in each computer, if you exported the character to alembic before rendering, a picture of the xpresso nodes would be great, how many hours you took to do one second of animation, how many different cuts this was rendered in because C4D bones start taking forever a long time to update the longer the animation goes on, how many years you spent learning how to make that rig in the first place, what version of C4D was used, what render engine was used, etc.

 

Amazing work, but I think you did it in spite of C4D.  Where there is a will there is a way kind of thing.  Even you have to admit there are other programs better for character animation.  I am curious if you tried character animation in Blender, Auto Rig Pro, and what you thought of them?

 

The way re-targeting is done in Auto Rig Pro is enough to make me switch to Blender.  Not having a ton of additional stuff with xpresso like in the C4D auto rig is also really nice.  Being able to scale the character with the joints and not have it freak out is great.  Being able to render without a node doing preparation to render as it chugs through xpresso for 24 hours is great.  Not having to use a farm at all because Eevee is so good is great.  Having the 3Dcoat plugin actually work is great.  12 years ago C4D character animation was great.  Problem is they haven't done much to improve character animation for 12 years when R11 brought NLA.  Exporting to an animation FBX was only possible for a long time thanks to the late great Cactus Dan.  There is too much to mention.  If you haven't tried Blender I see how you could be so upset.  If you have tried Blender you only get upset with yourself for staying with C4D for so long.

 

Look at the video for Auto Rig Pro.  It makes it so easy it's a 5 min. video on how to make a full rig including one for the face.  If you have problems after that I'd say go to the Blender forums where I'll answer your questions if your questions have not already been answered first by someone else in the huge blender community.  The Skin Selection plugin is also pretty straight forward to use.  Assign the controller or bone to the mesh selection you want it to be associated with.

 

ok. i'll do that. thanks very much for your help.

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Cinema 4d has good tools for rigging. Besides 3ds max and a bit of maya i dont know much about other packages but i feel very confortable rigging in this one. Obvisously i would like some improvements in the skinning system, maybe a multi layer system for the weight painting and a better constraint system that wasn't much of a drag with priorities. 

Unfortunately i'm mainly a generalist and i only rig occasionally, so there are a lot of skills (including learning python) that i miss. However it's good to work in a system that have such potencial and it helps a lot professionals like me that are not fully dedicated to rigging. For example i watched some rigging maya tuts and i find that if your are not a python user, you don't go very far... Perhaphs blender is better, but like i said it before, don't know it very well. Another thing that i really like is that we can mix mograph tools with rigging tools and provide some cool effects, and i dont see this kind of interaction in other packages.

 

Here's a an example of some of those rigs i've worked, and to show that c4d is a good tool to use. A lot of xpresso but no python at all. enjoy:

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6 hours ago, Fastbee said:

Please talk about how details like, how long it took to render this, how many computers were needed to render, the hardware in each computer, if you exported the character to alembic before rendering, a picture of the xpresso nodes would be great, how many hours you took to do one second of animation, how many different cuts this was rendered in because C4D bones start taking forever a long time to update the longer the animation goes on, how many years you spent learning how to make that rig in the first place, what version of C4D was used, what render engine was used, etc.

 

Amazing work, but I think you did it in spite of C4D.  Where there is a will there is a way kind of thing.  Even you have to admit there are other programs better for character animation.  I am curious if you tried character animation in Blender, Auto Rig Pro, and what you thought of them?

 

The way re-targeting is done in Auto Rig Pro is enough to make me switch to Blender.  Not having a ton of additional stuff with xpresso like in the C4D auto rig is also really nice.  Being able to scale the character with the joints and not have it freak out is great.  Being able to render without a node doing preparation to render as it chugs through xpresso for 24 hours is great.  Not having to use a farm at all because Eevee is so good is great.  Having the 3Dcoat plugin actually work is great.  12 years ago C4D character animation was great.  Problem is they haven't done much to improve character animation for 12 years when R11 brought NLA.  Exporting to an animation FBX was only possible for a long time thanks to the late great Cactus Dan.  There is too much to mention.  If you haven't tried Blender I see how you could be so upset.  If you have tried Blender you only get upset with yourself for staying with C4D for so long.

 

Look at the video for Auto Rig Pro.  It makes it so easy it's a 5 min. video on how to make a full rig including one for the face.  If you have problems after that I'd say go to the Blender forums where I'll answer your questions if your questions have not already been answered first by someone else in the huge blender community.  The Skin Selection plugin is also pretty straight forward to use.  Assign the controller or bone to the mesh selection you want it to be associated with.

first off, i was not involved in this animation.

 

regarding rendering: what are you talking about? this was rendered in a 3rd party engine like redshift, arnold or octane, none of which are available in blender, and are faster than cycles afaik... and while eevee is certainly great, i highly doubt you can get that exact look with it.

 

how many different cuts? probably a lot, that is how you do things in production, not because of any render time related topics, but workflow wise it just makes more sense to split things up in quite a lot of different shots. if you're trying to render out several minutes of character animation in one shot, then that tells me you have no clue about real production workflows.

 

regarding rigging: my own rig preset can do pretty much the same as the one in that short does, i didn't measure the time it took me to get to that level, but we are not talking about how long it takes to develop a complex rig on your own, seems like you're more talking about how long it takes to be able to utilize an auto rig solution. i'm sure the developers of autorig pro or the rigify addon worked months or years on it to get the systems to the current stage. 

you can learn how to rig a character with the rig presets available in the character object efficiently within a day. if you already know about things like weight painting and stuff you can learn how to use it in a couple of hours. i guess it takes about the same amount of time to get the hang of the process of any auto rigging tool in any app.

 

i can rig a body with usable autoweights in c4d with my preset in 5 minutes. i do prefer manual weight painting though (and btw, while blenders autoweights are good, i would still also weight paint manually in there, since they are also not perfect), weight painting takes me about 20min to an hour for the body, depending on the specifics.

when it comes to a face rig, i haven't seen any blender demo or tutorial where the autoweights for a face rig did work out of the box, and the face usually takes a little more time to get the weighting right. i can setup the rig for the face again in a couple of minutes, and spend like 1-2 hours of weight painting, another hour or two predefining some common poses for lipsync and stuff (same goes for blender).

 

maybe autorig pro is a bit more easy to handle than the character object, maybe retargeting works better (which i have no need for, i usually don't work with motion capture data), but i have watched some demos and tuts about auto rig pro, as well as about rigify, and i can't see a huge difference to the character object. the process is the very same, you bring the components in, you place the handles, you bind your mesh, you correct weights, you set up some custom stuff, like backpacks, antennas and stuff if needed.

 

about scale: if setup correctly for the task, you can scale rigs in c4d to any proportion you wish, make your character have giant feet or hands, scale up the torso, any controller in the rig. in blender also things have to be setup right. just because you can scale your auto-rigged characters doesn't mean the developers of the addon didn't have to take care about things so this is possible.

 

again, it's totally fine that you like blender better, if it clicks more with you that's great. just don't spread false information because of your lack of knowledge what can be done and how things should be done. there's enough people and projects out there to prove you wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, everfresh said:

first off, i was not involved in this animation.

Maybe show us some character animation work you did do from start through rendering on a farm and talk about any difficulties you had?

 

6 hours ago, everfresh said:

regarding rendering: what are you talking about? this was rendered in a 3rd party engine like redshift, arnold or octane, none of which are available in blender, and are faster than cycles afaik... and while eevee is certainly great, i highly doubt you can get that exact look with it.

Cycles gets faster with every release of Blender.  Back a few years ago if Redshift didn't use mesh lights it was 4x faster than Cycles without ecycles.  Ecycles makes cycles 2x faster, Optix makes Cycles 2x faster, Cycles also made some other improvements making it 1.4x faster? something like that, Redshift started using RTX which made it 1.4x faster, not sure if Redshift made other changes to make it faster since then.  Doing the math that means if Cycles started at 1 and Redshift at 4 they would end up at 1x2x2x1.4= 5.6 current speed of Cycles, and Redshift 4x1.4= 5.6.  With Cycles handling mesh lights just as well as regular lights it means Cycles squeaks out a victory.  It seems Redshift used to be the fastest render engine.  With theoretical speeds this close it would be interesting to do an actual comparison again.  Octane does have a fast render mode which sacrifices some stuff.  Other than that it can't compete.  Arnold can't even do complex GI.  The creator said so himself.  It's a no go for indoor scenes lit only from the outside.

 

No render engine can get the exact same look as any other.  Weather Eevee would be good enough I'll leave for you to decide.

 

 

7 hours ago, everfresh said:

again, it's totally fine that you like blender better, if it clicks more with you that's great. just don't spread false information because of your lack of knowledge what can be done and how things should be done. there's enough people and projects out there to prove you wrong.

I'll just tell people C4D hasn't updated their character animation tools in a significant way in 12 years and let the people decide if they want to use 12 year old tools.

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44 minutes ago, Fastbee said:

Maybe show us some character animation work you did do from start through rendering on a farm and talk about any difficulties you had?

 

Man, your fanboysm and emotional attachment to a software has began to overshadow what a cool software Blender can be in the right hands.

It is sad that not only you are not contribuiting to this topic - that would be, presenting facial rigs in C4D, or discussing it in a constructive manner - but you are also on this rampage against C4D artists (on a C4D forum for crying out loud...), trying to disprove at any cost that quality animation work can be done in C4D, or that Blender it is vastly superior in every aspect. 

I usually keep my cool and try to be as helpful as I can with people, not only on this forum but every other forum I am part of. But when i see an attitude like yours, diminishing people's work and effort, or asking them to prove... to you?..  what they can do with the software... just because it does not conform to your ideal way of work or the software of your choice, it is extremely sad, specially (and I repeat) on a C4D forum.  

Learn to accept that people can produce awesome results when they are comfortable to use their software of choice, and let their work speak for itself. Extremely awesome work has been produced by both Blender and C4D users, by insanely talented people who knows how to use each software extremely well within each software's limitations. And many softwares can be combined to produce amazing work, which is by far, the most important measure on how sucessfull certain process was...which makes this "one-man-war" of yours even more pointless.

 

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9 hours ago, everfresh said:

...a 3rd party engine like redshift, arnold or octane, none of which are available in blender...

I believe Octane is free for Blender users...just sayin'

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