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R21: reenable internal Help-system?

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We should not confound inability with motiv. They did exactly what they wanted to do.

For the user it's a very bad situation. (offline for security reasons/connection availability,..)

With online activation, online help and double accounts (eportfolio/mymaxon) it makes the situation worse... for us at least.

(by the way i would recommend to download all versions and every single update in case the e-portolio get's retired in the future)

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  • 52 minutes ago, black said:

     

    (by the way i would recommend to download all versions and every single update in case the e-portolio get's retired in the future)

     

    +1

    good idea. I’d recommend doing the same for all plugins working with these older versions.

    That will at least give us the peace of mind for some years to watch what they do in future versions. And a nice security net while doing some testprojects with Maya and Blender.

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    1 hour ago, Igor said:

    Folks, I appriciate your feedback and Ralph did what he could in given situation etc. But I would like to ask you to be more polite. No need of sarcastic questions and so on. If you guys want to see some changes, I would go polite route and not bully route, becasue to that no one will pay attention. 

    And yes, we have around 400 beta testers if I am not wrong and usually nothing slips to them or to us, but this was even for us "new". So there is still a chance this is going to be change in some way, so please, lets continue in nice and polite manners. Thanks 🙂

    It's really hard to stay calm and nice at this point.
    The ORIGINAL MAXON was (!) one of my favorite programs - not only because I felt it was being looked after by a fair crew.
    Now I have to watch how one feature after another is removed.
    In addition, the marketing department tells what all this brings great benefits.
    This all reminds me of Adobe. A real Dejavu.
    And?
    Did they, Adobe, listen to what their customers want, want, need?
    Ask yourself. No. They didn´t. Loosing trust wasn´t anything they were impressed by.
    Online Activation, Rental & Account Coercion, Broken Plug Ins, Restricting Render Notes, Cinevercity Removal ... The list could go further.
    And now also the omission of the help system (which obviously was not maintained in the recent past).
    I do not think you'll really listen to, NEW MAXON.
    The NEW MAXON is in completely different waters - Since it is trying with all their might to introduce the rental model and make money.
    What comes out of it - you see at Adobe only too well.
    Perfect programs - old and optimized. Hardly a possibility of optimization if you do not integrate fully covered functions that hardly a human needs.
    It will be hard for updates. Clear.
    I think there is hardly a problem that I could not solve with CS6 as well as with this cloud shi*.
    I do not mind that you make money. And I have always liked to pay for it - since you existed. And would have done in the future.
    But the rental model is a very one-sided knitted thing. The advantage lies entirely with you.

     

    It serves to take away our freedom. It binds us.


    No - quite honestly - I do not trust your new company management.
    And if your boss is still so jovial.
    I do not feel like I'm still talking to the same company. No longer believe that I am heard (as in the past).

    I do not think you will deviate a millimeter from your course.
    If marketing fools have decided something, it's done in stone.
    I know, it does not come from below - it comes from above. And I'm sorry for you employees.
    I feel like you have to follow the lead on bending and breaking.

    All this must sound horrible for those who have made the ORIGINAL MAXON great.
    And I do not write "against you" - I am against what the new leadership from your company wants to do and will do.
    In front of you - the employees - I have the highest respect. Realy.

    Please understand and do not feel attacked.
    As we are.

    Thank you for the support for decades.
    But now it will be time to go another way.
    I am extremely annoyed that large amounts of money (plugins & models & additional workflow) and time spend with learning lose their value.

     

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    20 hours ago, MRalph said:

    The whole Cinema4D experience is moving into the modern online world

    Oh no! NOOOO!!! Why do you screw it all up, when everything was fine, EXACTLY LIKE IT SHOULD BE?

    I was afraid you're new CEO will bring the worst things from "Adooubie" evil giant, who ruined everything they had, threatening their own customers like retarded moneybags, and now I feel the same is going on with our beloved company.

    C4D just established itself as a no-compromise, no-competition tool for motion, we just calmed down "ok's all nice finally!" and now - that? Adobe-like madness?

    This "agile" thing is not only controversial, it's stupid. If program hasn't changed, why help should? If program changed, what's the problem to update help offline too? It's simply webpages and nothing more, let us download them as before! It's totally far-fetched argument.

    More than that, all the Adobe scam started with the argument "we will evolve constantly!". And you know what? They didn't even once. I'm suspicious we see the same "beginning of the giant crumbling". But now we have nowhere to run out. There's NO OPTION!

    God, what's so wrong with CG industry we have to constantly suffer?

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    You know, I wasn't really amazed by the subscription option, but I thought it might be worth to buy, I considered paying you that way.

    Now I DON'T. I WOULD NOT SUPPORT THIS MOVEMENT. I will not support ruining my favourite piece of software in sake of adobe-style greed, I will not make you think it's "Ok, they will use to it", I will not let you move me into an ephemeral "online" which is needed only to suck more money from me doing nothing. We did go through it already, NO MORE.

    I'll stuck with my trusty R19 till you change your mind. Hopefully

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    I'm certainly not happy about a lot of things about all this, but time will tell.  I'm not throwing MAXON with Adobe just because they went subscription.  Maybe I am too hopeful, but I think development pace will pick up and good things are coming.  R21 is seriously lacking in features that I was sure would make it into this release.  If they don't make it in soon, then I may be looking at other options.  All these changes need to be good for development.  MAXON is not Adobe and I'll keep believing it hopefully for quite awhile longer. 

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    As one of my former bosses used to say:

    « don’t fix what’s not broken ».

    This sums it all. 😂

    Come on MAXON, the UI improvements in R21 are really good. Why screwing up big time with what has to be a staple feature of C4D? 

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    Ralph,
    I work with a lot of customers in defence and other  areas who are totally banned and unable to connect their machines to the internet in any form.

    So how are they supposed to get help?

     

    Your quote: " Online connectivity is something people assume nowadays..."
    Please don't assume - you can end up making bad decisions - like this one.

     

    "Having the help online greatly increases our flexibility and speed of deployment, especially for the numerous languages we support. It’s the modern agile approach and we are embracing it."


    Great to hear it's benefiting MAXON.  Does it benefit your customers?

     

    It won't help me. I'm frequently travelling with effectively no internet connection. At the absolute minimum please make this easily downloadable for your users. Like a lot of other users here I thought the exisiting C4D help system was one of the better features of the software. 

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    From R14/R15 & R20 I had my layout with 3 tabs. I have two monitors and a lot of the time I'll be following tutorials on the second monitor. When coming to something in a  tutorial it was super hand having the Help tab go straight to what I Right Clicked on within C4D.

     

    Having the tutorial window overtaken in the browser wouldn't be a nice user experience for myself right now.

     

    image.png.895fad54010a208c373c320f86462b87.png

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    Two questions -

     

    Which would you choose id offered the choice between offline help in its R20 form and online only help that can be more frequently and easily updated, integrates video tutorials and community links, and perhaps even moderated community contributions?

     

    If the help was still online only (and with the benefits above) but within a dockable window would that suit your needs?

     

    I realize some have offline limitations but it would help a lot of you'd consider whether offline help is really necessary in your situation. I'd absolutely love to be able to move in both directions (and maybe we can), but getting a clear picture of priorities will help us determine the best way to use our limited resources.

     

    Rick

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  • 55 minutes ago, RBarrett said:

    Two questions -

     

    Which would you choose id offered the choice between offline help in its R20 form and online only help that can be more frequently and easily updated, integrates video tutorials and community links, and perhaps even moderated community contributions?

     

    If the help was still online only (and with the benefits above) but within a dockable window would that suit your needs?

     

    I realize some have offline limitations but it would help a lot of you'd consider whether offline help is really necessary in your situation. I'd absolutely love to be able to move in both directions (and maybe we can), but getting a clear picture of priorities will help us determine the best way to use our limited resources.

     

    Rick

     

    Hi Rick,

     

    I appreciate you taking your time to listen to us. I’ll try to answer your questions as sincere as possible.

     

    1) Definitely the first option: I honestly don’t want the help to be polluted with video tutorials and community stuff. C4Ds help has been the best in the industry. That’s because of it’s direct accessibility in the software but also because it has been written in a very clear and “close to the user” language style. And I don’t need it to change constantly. If the new features were added every year – as has been the case in the past – great! 

    I’m playing with R21 since yesterday morning and I really start to even feel the loading times of a not local help-system. It’s not super-long. I have a fast connection in the office. But it adds up over the day and feels much longer than an offline help.

    Don’t get me wrong: I LOVE the Cineversity content and was very angry to have that not anymore included in the future as a die hard perpetual user. But Cineversity-style content has nothing to be in the help-system, as far as I’m concerned. Make an additional Button or tab in the internal help-browser that optionally loads Cineversity content, but don’t mix them, please.

     

    2) No, the lockable/floatable window (that doesn’t open a new tab/window every time I click a help-item) is very important to me, but the disadvantages of online-only outweigh even this.

    To better understand, look at my use-case:

    When I’m in the office, where I have a good internet connection, I’m working all day on customer projects with proven tools I know how to use. I very seldom try the latest features on a running client project with a tight budget and deadline. In this situation I need the helpsystem only 5%–15% of my overall “help-usage-time”.

    Where I often use the help a lot is when I have time to try out (learn!) the new features. That’s unfortunately mostly on long flights (no or VERY BAD expensive internet) on long trainrides accross the country (mostly no or very, very slow internet) or on vaccation on an island or in the mountains (yes, really!) with very slow internet. 

     

    The second thing to consider in this situation is: In my office (working for clients) I have 2 big monitors in front of me. In the latter situations, where I acutally need the help-system the most (planes, trains, vacation) I’m only on my 15" MacBook Pro. In this situation, a lockable/floating help within Cinema 4D is a life-saver. It’s so annoying to constantly change back and forth between a browser with a new tab for EVERY f***ing help-link I clicked, and Cinema 4D.

     

    Last but not least: It’s a minor annoyance, but it’s the new-tab/window for every help-item I click in c4D. I’m not navigating the help like a webpage. I try something in Cinema 4D, then I need the help on a specific input-field, read it, change some values and then I need help on another one and click it’s help, getting a new window in another software, the browser… and on and on.

     

    I feel it’s lost a little with MAXON why their users considered the Cinema 4D help so much better than anyone elses help. In contrast, the Adobe-style online help is hated by so many people I know and work with. We don’t even bother looking for a solution there but just google it. The reason why the Cinema 4D help was(!) so great is not just one thing: not just the writing style or the (up until now) awesome, direct integration in the software, but the sum of it’s parts.

     

    I hope that clarifies our huge frustration and anger when we discovered this very real digression of a once great software package.

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    1 hour ago, RBarrett said:

    Two questions -

     

    Which would you choose id offered the choice between offline help in its R20 form and online only help that can be more frequently and easily updated, integrates video tutorials and community links, and perhaps even moderated community contributions?

     

    If the help was still online only (and with the benefits above) but within a dockable window would that suit your needs?

     

    I realize some have offline limitations but it would help a lot of you'd consider whether offline help is really necessary in your situation. I'd absolutely love to be able to move in both directions (and maybe we can), but getting a clear picture of priorities will help us determine the best way to use our limited resources.

     

    Rick

    Offline help for me. With links to online videos if I want more details and explanations. I can't stand the lag caused by pages loading. And I loved the possibility to dock the help to my workspace. 

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