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An open letter to MAXON CEO McGavran

Do you feel Maxon is taking an Adobe route?  

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  1. 1. Do you feel Maxon is taking an Adobe route?

    • Yes
      59
    • No
      11


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  • 6 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

    What about UV tool enhancements?

    Sorry I've got bad language (actually I'm not native speaker), I used Sublime Text as my programming habit makes me like it much, there's no spell check

    There are definitely some things missing, but I am an animator mainly, and I noticed some problems others don't. You're very true regarding proper symmetry, UV is usually out of my interest and so on.. The most important thing I forgot is preferences migration. If you simply copy old prefs to fresh installation it usually screw things up, for example, if there are new features in the interface they will be hidden, because old layout simply had none of them. This way I could not find Bevel, Tweaking, solo mode and some other things in R17. If you highly customize your setup it takes significant efforts to rebuild it from scratch. It holds back from updating even 😄

    7 hours ago, DMcGavran said:

    We will review and compare to stuff we are actively working on

     

    3 hours ago, blutz said:

    Thanks for the list. Very interesting. I will need some time to dig into this list

    I'm very pleased with your answer 🙂. And I'd be extremely happy if I can really make C4D better and influence it's evolvement.

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    17 hours ago, adamfilip said:

    I am really happy to see the CEO of MAXON in the forum and I really hope negative comments and personal attacks dont stop Dave from visiting and reading the forum.

    I have been using C4D for 12 years with a MSA. I was always hoping MAXON would switch to a subscription model. Im really glad they did.. And personally i dont care about owning a license.. im always online. I always want the latest update and release and never go back to an old version once the new one is released. I also purchased redshift 5 months ago and Im super please MAXON purchased redshift. I am also a long time adobe user and subscriber.. its great. much better then the old system of buying multiple various levels of a license. subscription is so much easier and also easier for my boss to approve $50/-$80 month. versus thousands up front. I did wish R21 had more new features, but I still like what was released.Keep up the Good work Dave, Stick around

    Ummm…..pay for it yourself and you might just feel differently....and your boss must be paying the "per month" plan. because all other plans are billed annually.  Have you even told him about the $720/year plan because if you are using it more than 8 months a year then you are costing your poor boss to pay more.

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    34 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

    Ummm…..pay for it yourself and you might just feel differently

     

    That usually puts things in a completely new perspective.

     

     

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    I don't know David McGavran. It may very well be that he is a really fine guy. And I think he can't do much for the misery he got into. This decision has certainly been made before. And I can also understand that the time is not easy for all MAXON employees. They worked for a year and now they feel so much anger.

    But you should understand that it wasn't your users who started it. This release is so egocentric. All changes serve MAXON first and foremost.

     

    As this is a open letter I ad my bit to it, I thought about if it is worth it, if it makes sense, or if it is pathetic, but I work with cinema for 20 years, My income is dependent on it, as the income of all maxons emplyes is dependent of people buying it. Sorry if this text is a bit clumsy. If MAXON wants more feedback they can get it in German 🙂

     

    There have been times before when I was unhappy with the development of MAXON, and I ranted on the forum about them (for example Team render :).

    But this time it is different. Because this time there are indications for developments that could really force a major change in my business live. A change that I don't want, and a change that MAXON shouldn't want. But a change that I proved to be willing to do if forced.

     

    So Dave I am sure you have plenty of information about the situation of Cinema 4D from a MAXON perspective. I will try to explain the long term customer perspective. Of course this is my personal view on things, but I think many of the colleges that I work with feel somehow similar.

     

    Many years ago the MSA was forced on us. Well of surely there always was a perpetual license, but it was quite a bit more expensive. MAXON told us that they needed a steady stream of income to be able to develop longer term features and under the hood developments. People where unhappy, because they had to pay before they knew the features of the release they where paying for. Many sad „MAXON will not need to work hard and develop new features, because it already has our money“ MAXON said „we are under more pressure then before, because we have to deliver on expectations“. That sounds familiar right?

     

    Customers wanted features like water simulation and so on. MAXON said. we have to first program a new core to delver that. So customers where patient with quite some mediocre releases and awaited the version with the many new features they paid for in front.

     

    Even though there where some nice features added the last 5 years, Many got the impression, that the competition was outperforming MAXON. We knew that this was because of the new core of course.

     

    When Adobe switched to CC. A lot of people where upset. First they hoped it would not be to bad, or a uproar of the long time customers would change anything, but … well.

    Autodesk switched and users that didn't like that switched to C4D.

    Even a lot of people that use CC don't really like to get forced to subscribe. But of course there are always some people that enjoy being forced and that is fine 🙂

     

    Last year the MSA became more expensive and when a Adobe employee got CEO at MAXON people predicted: They will force us, they will take stuff from us they will go subscription.

     

    And that is what happened:

    MSA is not good enough any more, Team render gets limited and the only chance to plan our expenditure for the next years and to be save to be part of development is to subscribe, as we don't get any real official information about perpetual future („we intend to publish, but we don't know a price“) .

    MAXON tries to persuade us to give away our R21 perpetual license (that was worth some 3000€, before subscription) for 20% subscription costs for two years (I don't have the numbers, but I think it is less then 400€ ?!)

     

    So all this is quite Adobish.

     

    MAXON invested heavily in the development of the new licensing and activation.

    It's not as if the program has no weaknesses otherwise. Somehow it seems to me that preparations are being made all the time to start the developement of the features that users really want in a future that is getting further and further away.

    Was it really the most important thing now to change the help system? Wasn't there anything else that needed development time more urgently?

     

    I am sorry If I am doing MAXON people wrong, I am shure they worked a lot last year, but all I heard this release was: We are sorry, that you are not happy with the offer, but this helps us streamline..... that makes it easear for us …. that optimizes the cashflow for us.

     

    It was not about the customers this time...

     

    people get the impression, that they paid their MSA for many years to finance the development of the new core and now, that you can see the first results of it (Timeline) that they have to switch to subscription if they want to profit.

     

    And reducing the number of TR clients feels like the desperate need to press a bit more money out of your customers. Its like a restaurant reduces the quality of their ingredients to make a profit.

     

    There are so many things that upset your customers in this release that one could get the impression that it is on purpose.

     

    I cant' understand why Adobe doesn't want my money. But there for I give it to someone else.

    I hope MAXON wants my money.

     

    Best regards

    Jops

     

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    Feel free to write in German if you want, but I get your point.   You should come to MAXON and have a beer, my treat.  I think you will find that everyone at the company every day is working hard on Cinema 4D and Redshift.  I can appreciate from the outside you see things you don't like.  But I promise you the people at MAXON are fully focused on building the best product for its customers.  

    Cheers

    Dave

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    2 hours ago, DMcGavran said:

      You should come to MAXON and have a beer, my treat.  

     

    All future announcements should be in MAXON HQ while hosting a yearly "MO-BEER FEST"  :thisrocks:

     

    or MAX-BEER FEST

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  • Topic Author
  • Blend me some bear too please ;D
    Seriously, I feel kingda sad, as while this conversation goes, I realize it's going where it's going, but we have no power to change a thing. There's no point threatening MAXON "I quit!" or something like this. But what people tell you here will eventually happen if policy remains unchanged.

    I feel like the story of "folders in timeline", a famous one among After Effects users, might be repeated, and it's especially harsh as C4D is taking of on it's way to higher league promising much. And that's after years of awaiting new multithreaded core, fast viewport, new Xpresso with point-level manipulation in Houdini-style and so on. And all of my proposals I just sent you 😄

    I still hope it wouldn't be so, but we can't afford relying on that hope.

    Of course, I will not quit C4D as I like it much and I heavily invested in learning it. But I lean to stick to r19.

    I seemingly wouldn't say anything new on the topic, I hope others will. But I'm glad I started this thread and I will closely watch how it goes. Help, HELP, CTRL+F1 us to believe in you again ;D

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    8 hours ago, DMcGavran said:

    Feel free to write in German if you want, but I get your point.   You should come to MAXON and have a beer, my treat.  I think you will find that everyone at the company every day is working hard on Cinema 4D and Redshift.  I can appreciate from the outside you see things you don't like.  But I promise you the people at MAXON are fully focused on building the best product for its customers.  

    Cheers

    Dave

    Taken from the textbook for the modern manager. Do not say anything concrete but show yourself in a good light.

    Many people here are upset.
    And they earn a living with this software.
    I think they want to hear concrete things.
    As nice as that sounds - meeting to beer - it ignores that people here are seriously worried.

    I do not want to accuse it to you, but the company you once worked for is also known for ignorance, when it comes to "listen to the users".
    And I think MAXON should not be too sure if drinking is the right thing to do at the moment.

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    13 minutes ago, Raischub said:

    Taken from the textbook for the modern manager. Do not say anything concrete but show yourself in a good light.

    Many people here are upset.
    And they earn a living with this software.
    I think they want to hear concrete things.
    As nice as that sounds - meeting to beer - it ignores that people here are seriously worried.

    I do not want to accuse it to you, but the company you once worked for is also known for ignorance, when it comes to "listen to the users".
    And I think MAXON should not be too sure if drinking is the right thing to do at the moment.

    Hey, i’m amongst the disappointed users but come on, the tone of the messages here has become a bit too pathetic IMO. I think David read enough here to understand our concerns, and it’s quite amazing that we can now have a direct contact with MAXON. 

    I would come any time for a beer to meet these guys and get to see who created the program I love. I would even work for them  if they hired marketing people ( the whole R21 drama is a great case study for guys like me). 

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    I don't drink beer, but free beer with MAXON CEO I would try some.  🍺

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    Hard to believe, but since Dave happened to be in Munich, we actually had a few beers together last night. Of course this is a huge coincidence, but I wanted to take advantage of it.

    So, thanks David for the conversation and as I said, I'm happy to chat again in the future, no matter if or which C4D version I'm using 🙂

    We have discussed seriously, in some points also controversially. I enjoyed it, even though it was exhausting (it was a long week and quite late in the evening).

    Normally I don't tend to write each of my conversations in an online forum. In this case, however, so many People have to make decisions and therefor I would like to briefly summarize my personal findings for all those who have not yet had the opportunity to talk to him. Of course it is possible and probable that other people would gain a different personal impression. I hope not to much gets lost in translation.

    He is communicative. This means that you will probably have the possibility to come into direct contact with him in the future.
    You can discuss with him controversially, without him disdaining or choking the opinion of the other (that was at least my impression).
    I can also imagine that the communication of MAXON employees in forums will increase in the future and become less complicated.

    I am also convinced that he will do everything in his power to speed up the development of Cinema 4d and I trust him to do so. In general, as far as the technical development of Cinema is concerned, I think things could improve.

    However, the communication and cooperation with the customer ends at the moment when it comes to business decisions, i.e. at the moment when it is defined what should cost how much and under what conditions, what costs extra and what does not.

    Dave has set himself very ambitious goals for MAXON and in order to achieve them he believes he must be prepared to alienate or lose customers. I think this can easily be prevented, but on this point we disagree.

    I would like him to be as interested in the diverse business needs of his customers as he is in the diverse technical needs of his customers.

    I am confident that perpetual licenses will continue for the time being, but I suspect that at some point its future will be decided emotionlessly on the basis of sales figures and these will of course depend strongly on the conditions offered.

    So Dave I told you I will not make it easy for you. But it was my intention to describe my impressions fairly.

    If you still have desire now ... call me when you are in Munich.

    Jops
     

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    I truly enjoyed that it worked out and we got to have a beer (2 actually and a longer night than planned).  Thank you for taking your time to have a fun discussion, I enjoyed the talk and hope we can do it again in the future.   Now I probably need a nap 😉

    Cheers

    Dave

     

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