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srek

.5 Versions

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Hi all,

in many discussions about new Cinema 4D there comes the point where someone points out that this version is more of a .5 version than a full version.

Since i was intimately involved in the development of all .5 versions i scratched my head and asked myself what could have prompted such a remark.

This is what we delivered

R 8.5 - Sketch & Toon, improved material manager, SLA shaders integrated and improved, SSS, Vector MB, new Radisoity mode, Post Effects as layers

R 9.5 - Ambient Occlusion, Color Mapping, Physical Sky, New Content Browser, Area Lights, 32 Bit Rendering, improved baking, PS Layer support, improved particle effectors, Xpresso improvements, incremental saving, Normal Channel

R 10.5 - XRefs, DWG, HUD, new modeling functions, interactive lighting, improved UV unwrapping, new Effectors, new Cloning options, substantial Hair speed up

R 11.5 - MoGraph 2, NLA, New GI, BP R4, SPD, Render Instances, new Picturer Viewer, FBX export improvements

i shortened the list since usually it was well over 100 items per release.

Given that the last .5 version came out 10 years ago i think it is no wonder that many do not remember the actual scope of those releases. Also at the time we had the modul system. MoGraph for example was released based on 9.6 and never showed up as a new feature in any main release.

In the end i think it was just the feeling that .5 must be less than 1 and the effects of the module system that decoupled a lot of major functionality from the core program.

 

 

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Maybe because productivity improvements always receive less praise vs new creative tools and features like fields, volumes, poly pen, sculpting etc. 

And also maybe because old users start losing patience, waiting for long overdue features...

These are just assumptions but this is how I feel at the moment: I’m less willing to « forgive » when competition is so active...

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  • 38 minutes ago, Adrien said:

    Maybe because productivity improvements always receive less praise vs new creative tools and features like fields, volumes, poly pen, sculpting etc. 

    And also maybe because old users start losing patience, waiting for long overdue features...

    These are just assumptions but this is how I feel at the moment: I’m less willing to « forgive » when competition is so active...

    I can totally understand the disappointment many people feel when they see a new version. It is very likely that many aspects they want to see improved are either not adressed or not in the way they want. Also often enough they don't see the advantages. On the other hand there is an interesting effect that it takes at least a couple of weeks after any release until the positive stories on how this or that new feature or improvement is just what they needed come up. For me and many coworkers that is an unending source of frustration, to see things that we know will help a lot being dismissed early on, just to be discovered as realy usefull a while later. Despite all the work we put in we get surprised as well, sometimes on how little what we thought would be a good thing does for the users and sometimes about something we thought to be a small thing turning out to be a lifesaver for some. The scope of Cinema 4D users is enormous, our customers are working in such a wide variety of fields that i sometimes despair to find things that will help even most, if not all.

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    Even if I'm disappointed at this release, I also see lots of cool improvements: the UI is so sleek now, the node editor is the best in the industry, Pro-Render is getting better everyday and definitely usable for commercial still images.

    C4D is well thought out and this feature on its own makes the program superior to anything I've tried. And it is super stable. That's why so many people stick to it despite the limitations.

    But it's far from perfect and it now lags behind in too many fields: cloth, dynamics, particles, fluids, symmetry modelling, UV/BP etc. An average C4D studio user now needs to top up with  X particles, a decent UV unwrapper like Ryzom, an external render engine, marvellous designer for cloth, maybe Houdini for complex sims...And for any serious modelling HB modelling scripts have become a must have (I am soooooo tired of caps retopo and manually projecting 8-edged splines to create perfect circular cut outs).

     

    That's just too much for the price that MAXON is asking and  it couldn't have been a worse time to announce the subscription mode....

     

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    4 hours ago, srek said:

    In the end i think it was just the feeling that .5 must be less than 1

     

    Hi Srek - I think the above is the right interpretation. It's just an expression to say this feels significantly less than we expected.

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    Srek:
    "The scope of Cinema 4D users is enormous, our customers are working in such a wide variety of fields that i sometimes despair to find things that will help even most, if not all."


    I can certainly understand the issues here. I work in fairly 'niche' areas of 3D myself, so often the areas I'd like to see improved are often of little interest to others.

    But having said that, I'm surprised to hear you say: "i sometimes despair to find things that will help even most, if not all." to me there seem to be many areas requiring improvement that would benefit the vast majority of your users: UV mapping improvements, handing speed of large numbers of objects... etc. 

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  • 1 minute ago, MikeA said:

    The scope of Cinema 4D users is enormous, our customers are working in such a wide variety of fields that i sometimes despair to find things that will help even most, if not all.


    I can certainly understand the issues here. I work in fairly 'niche' areas of 3D myself, so often the areas I'd like to see improved are often of little interest to others.

    But having said that, I'm surprised to hear you say: "i sometimes despair to find things that will help even most, if not all." to me there seem to be many areas requiring improvement that would benefit the vast majority of your users: UV mapping improvements, handing speed of large numbers of objects... etc. 

    Those are issues, along with many others, we are well aware of and are actively working on. They are not being ignored.
    The problem with the lack of performance in complex scenes is one of the biggest issues ever. It is at the heart of the core rewrite we announced a while ago and many of the things that are currently happening are caused by this. I.e. the frequent changes to the SDK that require plugin recompiles are to a large degree caused by neccesary core changes. The same goes for many less visible but consistent changes in tools, where new code bases and APIs are rolled out to allow for a more modern core architecture. The core rewrite often makes it necessary to redo old code, leading to additional development time that does not produce new features. On the other hand we always try to make immediate use of these reworked areas, leading to many of the smaller improvements you can see. It is a long journey with many steps and we are on it.

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    23 minutes ago, srek said:

    Those are issues, along with many others, we are well aware of and are actively working on. They are not being ignored.
    The problem with the lack of performance in complex scenes is one of the biggest issues ever. It is at the heart of the core rewrite we announced a while ago and many of the things that are currently happening are caused by this. I.e. the frequent changes to the SDK that require plugin recompiles are to a large degree caused by neccesary core changes. The same goes for many less visible but consistent changes in tools, where new code bases and APIs are rolled out to allow for a more modern core architecture. The core rewrite often makes it necessary to redo old code, leading to additional development time that does not produce new features. On the other hand we always try to make immediate use of these reworked areas, leading to many of the smaller improvements you can see. It is a long journey with many steps and we are on it.

    I understand this, but I do not understand why the customers who have been loyal to you through the previous process of renewal are now being punished. But I don't think that's your decision.

     

    Never mind,

    Jops

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    3 hours ago, Adrien said:

    Pro-Render is getting better everyday and definitely usable for commercial still images.

    That gave me a deja vu from almost 20 years ago,  i am in first years of this century with  Lightscape...

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    I'm not sure I have the same context with @Jops but I have the same sentiment. 

    It's not even the feature for now. It's just the way it is handled.
    My main argument is "Sure, add a subscription model. We welcome new users but don't punish those who already have perpetual license" 

    Cases of being punished:
    1) No clear details if perpetual R21 can upgrade to R22. By the looks of it, R22 is like subscription only .
    2) No more cineversity for perpetual users once MSA expires. Available only for subscription.
    3) Redshift subscription is only available to R21 subscription and not to R21 perpetual.
    4) Broken cineversity toolbox. Probably to be fix for an incremental upgrade available only to subscription users. 
    5) The R21 lackluster features will be probably supplemented by incremental upgrades, which is again available only to subscription users. 

    Again, I'm all for subscription as a complementary pricing model but not as a replacement. 

    They did offer a conversion from perpetual to subscription. I would have considerations in switching but its not enticing really. 
    Supposing you bought a R20 $3500 license . If it is converted to a subscription, you'd expect at least 3 years of subscription or 3.5 for a stretch. 
    If someone argues, well not really since there are more features a long the way. Indeed it will, but since  $3500 now will be more of worth later in 3 years ( through time value of money). So it will just even it out. 

    Currently, I think the best they can offer is 20% discount for around 2 years which does not even total to $500. Compared to the $3500 R20 license you exchange with. 
    Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Anyway, I still use C4D and I have no plan on leaving. 

    Thanks @srek for sharing your side. Have a great day head! 
     

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    2 hours ago, srek said:

    Those are issues, along with many others, we are well aware of and are actively working on. They are not being ignored.
    The problem with the lack of performance in complex scenes is one of the biggest issues ever.... 
    we are on it.


    Thanks Srek, I'm sure we all appreciate your willingness to respond to the conversation here.

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    12 minutes ago, MikeA said:


    Thanks Srek, I'm sure we all appreciate your willingness to respond to the conversation here.

    Yes I am also very happy about the new way MAXON is communicating about the technical side of things via Forum. So thanks for that.

    I am quite shure that srek understands the emotions that come with a such price increase in 3 Years for perpetual MSA customers.

    BTW. I never saw a real difference between 0.5 updates and 1 updates.

    But as the new activation, that is the base for subscription is a no feature for many and 4K support is considered something overdue. I understand why people are disappointed by this release. But of course this features where a lot of work, too.

    best regards

    Jops 

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