Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ingvarai

Must I still pay for MSA?

Recommended Posts

Hi, isn't MSA history by now?
I got an invoice today, from the Norwegian representative for MAXON. MSA payment.
When I protest, they claim that the MSA follows the calendar year, and that I still have to pay, as long as it is 2019.
Is this correct? Does the MSA follow the calendar year? Isn't MSA over and out, totally? 
What if I don't pay? Will my Perpetual license for R21 be rendered invalid?
What about you, some of you are former MSA subscribers, do you still pay for the MSA?
-Ingvar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have an auto-renew MSA and you do not cancel it then I believe you still have to pay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Topic Author
  • 26 minutes ago, Lonchaney said:

    If you have an auto-renew MSA and you do not cancel it then I believe you still have to pay.

    But hasn't MAXON itself cancelled the MSA?

    ====

    New MAXON Service Agreements are no longer available as of July 30, 2019. Renewals of MAXON Service Agreements will no longer be available after August 31, 2019.
    ====
    https://www.MAXON.net/en/products/cinema-4d/new-in-release-21/faq/


    As far as I understand, auto-renew isn't possible according to this. I will try to find the MSA agreement I have agreed upon. But there is something wrong here.

    -Ingvar

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    6 minutes ago, ingvarai said:

    ...no longer available

    I think this refers to the "renewal" process and not your existing MSA.

     

    9 minutes ago, ingvarai said:

    I will try to find the MSA agreement I have agreed upon. But there is something wrong here.

    Be sure to read the small print 😕

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Topic Author
  • I believe I did start paying for the MSA in October 2014. And not i January 2015. Which contradicts the statement that "MSA follows the calendar year".
    If this is the case, I have already paid for 5 full years. I will have to check my account books.

    -Ingvar

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    The MSA does not follow the calendar year, that's BS.

     

    But there is a three month cancellation period, so if you bought the MSA in October (say, the 1st) then the cancellation notice from MAXON must have been arrived before July 1st to affect your contract. If you got the cancellation after that, then the automatic renewal will still affect you, and your MSA will only expire on the 30th of September 2020.

     

    Personally I wouldn't mind because the MSA comes with Cineversity and includes the R22 Perpetual for a much lower price than either the subscription or the (likely) upgrade price.

     

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Topic Author
  • Hi Cairyn,
    now I am really confused.
    What you say here, is that it is business as usual regarding MSA?

    "MAXON told Greyscalegorilla that the MSA program will no longer continue"

    https://greyscalegorilla.com/2019/08/cinema-4d-redshift-subscription/

     

    If you use the chart here, released from GeryscaleGorilla, there is no mention of the MSA whatsoever after September 2019.

    https://greyscalegorilla.com/2019/08/what-version-cinema-4d-buy-subscribe/


    I am absolutely 100% confused.
    Not the least because it is not clear that there even will be a R22 at all / or when it, in case it will come, will be released. The yearly cycle of one release 1.st September can be broken. I believe this is realistic, when I read the rather cryptic statements coming from MAXON.
    So to continue with MSA one more year to get  R22 at a good price, it seems very strange right now.
    Considering MAXON officially has stopped MSA and that MAXON might go the Microsoft route with Windows 10: Constant C4D updates, no new major version.


    -Ingvar

    GSGSubscriptionGuide.png

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    It seems the distributor messed up by not canceling your MSA in time. Maybe get in contact With MAXON HQ in germany to clear this up.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    11 hours ago, ingvarai said:

    Hi Cairyn,
    now I am really confused.
    What you say here, is that it is business as usual regarding MSA?

     

    (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and not working for MAXON and I do not know your specific MSA wording, so everything I say here is taken from many many pages of discussion and semi-official posts from MAXON people. I am also not a native speaker so I may use the legally incorrect phrases. Ask someone from MAXON if you want a final word.)

     

    No, the MSA is no longer offered / has been discontinued, and the existing MSAs have been cancelled / terminated.

     

    However, MAXON still needs to fulfill the original contract, as the MSA is a service agreement and not a one-time buy. That means two things:

    1. During the period when the MSA is still valid (which is until the original end, not the time of cancellation), MAXON will need to provide you with the service that's in the contract, including support, the license for a second installation (kinda pointless with the new system) and service updates. Your existing MSA does not suddenly become invalid because of the cancellation. MAXON cannot withhold service from you that you paid for.

    2. If you have an auto-renewal (like me, but unlike the US users apparently), and the cancellation happened less than three months before the time of renewal, then the renewal still comes into effect. That is because the MSA contract cancellation has a three-months-in-advance clause. The renewal is part of the MSA, so if MAXON doesn't cancel in time (three months before the MSA expires), then the MSA will be valid for a year more, you have to pay the fee, and MAXON will have to deliver the agreed services for the whole year. After that, the MSA will not be renewed any more and expires for good. For you, that will be in October 2020 apparently.

     

    Now the big question is what new versions this MSA still entitles you to get. Up to this year's changes, you would get all service updates, which included the big once-a-year upgrade. In the future, the update/upgrade cycle may change but as we haven't seen that in effect yet, I cannot say anything definitive (and frankly, from the ongoing discussions I glean that MAXON may not have totally finalized their plans here either).

    What we know is that McGavran assured us there will be a R22 Perpetual, and that MAXON is committed to offer Perpetuals in the future. (We may choose to believe that or not.) With your MSA still valid, you are entitled to get updates. Whether that would include the inbetween releases or not is unclear - however, as the legal situation seems to prevent MAXON from delivering updates with new functions on your MSA, I assume that you get the R22 next year and only possible bugfixes inbetween.

     

    Will there be a R22 Perpetual? I admit that we don't have a guarantee on that but I strongly believe so. First, there are still MSAs that will be valid at the time when a new main version is normally coming out (like your upcoming renewal). You may need to consult the MSA wording to find out whether you're promised a new main version there, but it would be an incredibly sh*** move by MAXON if they let people pay for the MSA and then withhold a R22. If the subscription discussion has been, well, unpleasant - wait until they do something like that. Not to mention that the internet doesn't forget things, and that the semi-official promise for a R22 Perpetual will be remembered.

     

    Will there be a R23 Perpetual? Now that is an open question. MAXON may tell us next year that everybody loves subscriptions and people don't buy the Perpetuals, and therefore discontinue the Perpetuals. We don't have a pricing on the R22 Perpetual Upgrade yet, so we don't know whether the full upgrades will be made significantly less attractive to enforce the move to subscription. As Perpetuals sort of stand in the way of the whole continuous update process (they will need extra stability and testing, and maybe separate bugfix updates), it is highly likely that the long-term plans from MAXON do not include Perpetuals any more.

     

    P.S. After reading the response by Srek, I am confused now. I have read from several users now that they got a bill for the next renewal, and from what I glean from these posts their MSAs will expire only after the R22 is supposed to come out. Plus, no matter who messed up the cancellation, someone will need to own up to that contract. Maybe it's time to get out the lawyers.

     

    P.P.S. Greyscalegorilla originally had an error on their pages that has been corrected later. I can't read the diagram though; even the text on the large version is too blurry and small.

     

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    21 hours ago, Cairyn said:

    The MSA does not follow the calendar year, that's BS.

     

    But there is a three month cancellation period, so if you bought the MSA in October (say, the 1st) then the cancellation notice from MAXON must have been arrived before July 1st to affect your contract. If you got the cancellation after that, then the automatic renewal will still affect you, and your MSA will only expire on the 30th of September 2020.

     

    Personally I wouldn't mind because the MSA comes with Cineversity and includes the R22 Perpetual for a much lower price than either the subscription or the (likely) upgrade price.

     

    I thought all MSA's ended on September 1st OR with R21.  That is, if your MSA expires after September 1st you will only get R21 and that is it.  I never heard that in any situation your MSA would allow you to get R22.   But what you are saying is that people with an existing MSA which expired after September 1st will get R21 under that old MSA and by renewing their MSA one last time will get R22 at the $720 price.

     

    Wow....if that is true, then for those whose MSA expired before September 1st have just one more reason to feel mistreated by MAXON as they only get MSA pricing for R21 while everyone else gets it for R21 and R22.

     

    That just can't be true, but then again nothing surprises me anymore about the new MAXON.

     

    EDIT: I just read the well-written and very clear explanation from Cairyn and now understand that there are circumstances for some on the auto-renew plan who have an MSA expiring after 9/1/2019 to renew and get R22.    So as I understand it, for mostly everyone (especially those in the US who do not have the auto-renew plan),  that ANY MSA expiring after 9/1/2019 would NOT be able to be renewed.  But for those on automatic renewal, the contract stipulates that cancellation must occur 3 months before the renewal date.   Now this creates a window of opportunity because MAXON would have had to inform auto-renewal MSA participants in June that their auto-renewal is canceled if they wanted to follow the same rules for everyone else with MSA's ending on 9/1/2019.  This would have raised questions prior to the roll-out of the subscription policy on R21 which MAXON may have wanted to avoid.  So they kept quiet and accepted the fact that people with auto-renewal date BEFORE (9/1/2019 plus 3 months) December 1st would be able to get both R21 and R22 at MSA pricing.  I am pretty sure that for everyone else with auto-renewal dates after 12/1/2019 got their cancellation notices on 9/1/2019.

     

    Okay...so is there anything that MAXON is doing that makes ALL customers feel like they are being treated fairly?  This whole transition is complex, confusing, legally entangled, and therefore poorly communicated because the implications of the transition are not well understood by anyone.  However you want to coach it, it still feels the same: It does not put the customer first. 

     

    Dave

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Cairyn has it correct.   You have an MSA contract with a reseller that auto renews.  The last auto renews that will renew are from (mostly) European distributors and resellers in September and October.  Assuming you didn't cancel it, it renews.  MAXON and resellers have the same cancelation policy as you, we need to cancel the next renew 3 months in advance.  If you have an MSA that renews you will get R21 perpetual (already delivered) to keep.  If your MSA extends past our next perpetual release you will get that as well.  

     

    Cheers

    Dave

     

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    1 hour ago, DMcGavran said:

     If your MSA extends past our next perpetual release you will get that as well.

    Hmm, the interesting question with this kind of phrasing is whether there will be a R22 Perpetual release within the runtime of still-open MSAs. If there will not be a release in September 2020, people who paid now for their last MSA extension (which would, with the previous release schedule, cover R22) would feel quite disappointed, to say the least, if the release is delayed beyond the end date of their MSA, and they would not be eligible for an R22 any more. While I am not affected personally, I still hope MAXON has made plans for that occurrence (and I don't mean "get a subscription").

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

    Guest
    Reply to this topic...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

    Sign in to follow this  

    • Recently Browsing   0 members

      No registered users viewing this page.

    ×
    ×
    • Create New...