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bbuxton

The end of MSA

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Dave, the offer does not reflect the value of the perpetual license we are expected to give up. Sorry but this is a shocking way to treat customers. I paid 160,000 yen to go from R19 to R21. The transition broke all the plugins I use, almost all of which incured further costs to update. 5 months on I am still waiting for plugins to be fixed. On top of this R21 is so thin on updates it would disappoint even if MSA was still available, even if you had been a little more upfront about the costs of upgrading perpetual licenses and had not shoved subscription so far up our ******* arses.

Dreadful, dreadful dreadful. 

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Please just call :). The 2 year offer requires you transition to subscription.  We have other offers where you keep your perpetual and you can add a subscription at a reduced cost.  We aren't going to list all options here but happy to go through them all on phone 🙂

Cheers

Dave

 

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Thank you Dave

It is nice to know there are other offers, it might be an idea to explain this to local resellers too or even publish this where users can find it. TMSMedia in Tokyo see subscription as an advantageous alternative to purchasing a new license outright with no grasp of the material loss that it represents. Try asking to the cost of upgrading R21 to R22 in the future and the question is met with bewilderment. After a great deal of discussion I'm left with "MAXON do not disclose future upgrade costs. The problem is that by obfuscating the cost of maintaining a perpetual license and bombarding users with really bogus offers that require giving up perpetual entitlements for subscription you are going to invite a lot of anger and mistrust.

Please just make it simple and clear. On the MAXON site how hard is it to publish the cost of upgrading to the next release while maintaining a perpetual license? Offers and other incentives should come after not instead of this. 

Sincere regards

 

 

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We work closely with TMS and they have the entire price list.   I will be visiting them next month. We don't disclose the cost of upgrades because we do that when we create the upgrade.   In general it will be similar to the past.,  BMW also won't tell you what a new car costs next year.   The reason we don't publish the different offers is because we used to offer 6 different products with different terms with potentially MSA's, Lite versions and student versions,  It makes for a very complicated matrix.

Cheers

Dave

 

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It is a complex matrix of your own making, deliberate.

Really it can be simple and transparent and by that I mean reputable.

BMW also wont sell you a car then later tell you that you cannot sell it to a 3rd party, or that you can no longer get it repaired, that after a year you have to buy the car again or return it. 

 

 

 

 

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What is not transparent.   We give you a different discount on Visualize vs Broadcast.   We don't want the website to be too complex, so just call.  TMS will tell you the pricing based on what you have.   We allow you to sell your perpetual to other users.   BMW like us offers a lease option.   BMW like us offers to sell you a new car next year and you can turn in your old car (Upgrade).   You asked if you get a discount on subscription and can keep your perpetual.  The answer is yes, call and let us know exactly what you own.   If you want to keep your perpetual and use the upgrade pricing, we will have an upgrade for generally around the same historical pricing, some time later this year.  If you have Cinema 4D Lite (i.e. After Effects) we will give you a discount.  If you were a student we will give you a discount.  If you are a student it is free.   This is all standard stuff.

Cheers

Dave

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Interesting to see that the debate on cost continues...and interesting to see that I no longer wish to argue the point.  

 

Rather, I would like to have a serious discussion on win-win options that benefit everyone!  To do that, let's get to core of what MAXON and long time users want:

 

MAXON:  MAXON wants a re-occurring revenue stream coming from their user base.  You really can't blame them for that and subscriptions are a great way to make that happen.  All moves made with R21 (one license, pricing on subscriptions, license server, etc) are all very good moves for their business as it reduces cost while at the same time providing a path to a more predictable future revenue stream.  With business, cash flow is king and if you can get to a business model that almost guarantee's a cash flow over time, then that just makes long term planning on head-count, acquisitions, product development easier.  Plus, investors love it. 

 

Long Time UsersWe have spent years building up assets (plugins, models, scenes, scripts, libraries, etc.) specifically tailored to C4D.  And each year, we add to those assets and those new assets are minted in the latest version of the program.  Unfortunately, the nature of software development is that everything is forward compatible (R19 files will work in R21) but NOT backward compatible (R21 files will not work in R19).  As such, we still want access to all the new assets we create each year with each release of the program ON A PERMANENT BASIS.  So we prefer permanent licenses. Talk of turning off access to those new assets in any way after we have paid for the software bothers us significantly.  So any "sale" on switching from a permanent license to a subscription that turns off the permanent license is extremely upsetting.   Finally, raising the cost of permanent license upgrades significantly for loyal long time permanent license holders just hurts.  Now we feel trapped because the nature of upgrades is such that the longer you step off the upgrade path the more expensive it is to step back on.  MAXON needs to appreciate the sacrifice of time and money people put into mastering their program and it needs to be respected with whatever business model they develop.

 

To summarize:

 

MAXON wants the re-occurring revenue that comes with subscriptions

Long time users never want to lose access to their assets but do not want to be raked over the coals to upgrade their perpetual licenses with each release.

 

THE WIN-WIN SOLUTION

 

To set the stage for this proposal, lets assume that a subscription stays at $720/year while the upgrade cost for a perpetual license is $950.  MAXON keeps those prices and options as-is but to it adds the following option for ONLY permanent license holders

 

Win-Win Scenario 1

 

You are permanent license holder for the current version at the time a new version is announced.  If you enter into an subscription plan for that newly announced version  then should you decide at some point in the future leave that subscription plan, you can convert your current subscription license to a permanent license for a small additional fee  - say, $100.  Remember that you paid for that subscription up front.  So opting out does not cost MAXON anything but only nets them an additional $100.  As this decision will most likely be made at the time a new release is announced, you are paying this additional money for a permanent license to the previous version. 

 

As an example, assume you are an R21 permanent license holder and R22 is announced.  Then to get into this plan you have to accept an R22 subscription.  In the future when R23 is announced and you decide to NOT continue with the program, you can convert your R22 subscription license to a permanent license for an additional $100. 

 

MAXON can make this a 1 time event for people who are leaving the program only and make those converted permanent licenses non-transferable.  Under this plan,  you stay current with your subscription plan year after year but should financial circumstances change and you can no longer continue with the program, then the fear of losing access is now removed by that $100 option to keep your most current version still active with a permanent license.  All the costs to get back into the program in the future are the same as they would be for people with down-revved permanent licenses.  

 

Another version of this plan which is more attractive to MAXON (and a little less attractive to the user) is the same as before but with the following change:

 

Win-Win Scenario 2:

You can ONLY get the option to convert your current subscription license to a permanent license for an additional $100 if you continue with your subscription for the next release.   

 

For example, you have an R21 permanent license and sign up for the R22 subscription plan as before.  When R23 comes out, you can only convert your R22 subscription license to an an R22 permanent license for an additional $100 should you decide to continue with the R23 subscription.  This option continues year after year netting MAXON an additional $100 each year while preserving their subscription revenue.

 

This option is still "somewhat" attractive to the user because it lowers the annual cost of a permanent license from $950 to $820 (subscription cost plus $100).  This permanent license should be discounted because it is a permanent license on a down-revved version.  Now the big downside to users with  Scenario 2 is that should you decide to completely opt out of continuing with R23 and are severing ties with the program, then the last permanent license you will have will be 2 versions down from the most current (in this example, R21 as the current subscription you have is with R22 which you will NOT be renewing).  Therefore you could lose access to your last years worth of work but over time, any plan that ONLY puts 1 years worth of work at risk is still a much better plan than a pure subscription model where everything done with a subscription license is at risk.

 

The other win-win for MAXON with both scenarios is that it encourages new users who have ONLY used C4D via a subscription plan to consider purchasing a permanent license at some point because these benefits ONLY extend to PERMANENT LICENSE holders.  You can't enter into this $100 annual program unless you do so with a current permanent license.   At some point in the far future, subscription users are going have the same concerns over access to their assets after they leave the  subscription plan that old timers like myself have.  They may want this option at some point, and the only way to get there is to buy a permanent license at full cost.

 

Please take the time to consider this.  As much as I have spoken against subscriptions, I understand the business forces driving you to do it.  MAXON has always been very good to its customers and its employees in the past and I hope that culture to create win-win scenarios for everyone did not get lost in the midst of your new business model.

 

Dave

 

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Why would you switch to subscriptions and than go back to permanent? Why just not staying on permanent and pay maintenance/upgrade? I do not see point of adding one more layer of complexity...

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On 1/22/2020 at 12:46 AM, DMcGavran said:

What is not transparent.   We give you a different discount on Visualize vs Broadcast.   We don't want the website to be too complex, so just call.  TMS will tell you the pricing based on what you have.   We allow you to sell your perpetual to other users.   BMW like us offers a lease option.   BMW like us offers to sell you a new car next year and you can turn in your old car (Upgrade).   You asked if you get a discount on subscription and can keep your perpetual.  The answer is yes, call and let us know exactly what you own.   If you want to keep your perpetual and use the upgrade pricing, we will have an upgrade for generally around the same historical pricing, some time later this year.  If you have Cinema 4D Lite (i.e. After Effects) we will give you a discount.  If you were a student we will give you a discount.  If you are a student it is free.   This is all standard stuff.

Cheers

Dave

Analogies aside, what is not transparent is the fact that nowhere on MAXON's site or partner resellers sites is any indication that there are other offers where users can move on from MSA and still retain their perpetual licenses. This is why there is so much outrage. Users who accept this discount and give up their perpetual licenses are being deceived by MAXON because this information is withheld, reluctantly given only to users who call foul and complain. You have a mountain of work to restore  the trust you have so willfully betrayed.

For those reading this who might not want any confrontation, take a look at what happened to Sonos recently, when trying rather too aggressivly to apparantly force owners of legacy products to upgrade. 

 

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This is how I understand the math of the 40% deal in exchange for the surrender of your perpetual license.

 

A perpetual license is currently 418,000 yen, this is a surcharge of 325600 yen over the annual subscription.

The offer represents a saving of 73,920 yen – 37,800 yen for 6 months remaining MSA (already paid) is a final saving of 36,120 just over 10% of the surcharge for a perpetual license. If you went to the bank and deposited  1,000,000 yen only to discover that when you wanted to withdraw your money they would only return 100,000 yen, you would be as angry as I am today. It is a form of theft.

 

And just to Call Dave out on his just call.... for alternative offers

My response from TMSMedia

Thank you for your feedback.

TMSs offer is based on the terms provided by MAXON to distributors. Unfortunately, we dont know any other offer for MSA customers.

We dont receive any information about your conversation with David McGavran yet. We will ask this matter to MAXON.  When we get any other offers from MAXON, we will inform to you.

So

"What is not transparent.   We give you a different discount on Visualize vs Broadcast.   We don't want the website to be too complex, so just call.  TMS will tell you the pricing based on what you have.   We allow you to sell your perpetual to other users.   BMW like us offers a lease option.   BMW like us offers to sell you a new car next year and you can turn in your old car (Upgrade).   You asked if you get a discount on subscription and can keep your perpetual.  The answer is yes, call and let us know exactly what you own.   If you want to keep your perpetual and use the upgrade pricing, we will have an upgrade for generally around the same historical pricing, some time later this year.  If you have Cinema 4D Lite (i.e. After Effects) we will give you a discount.  If you were a student we will give you a discount.  If you are a student it is free.   This is all standard stuff.

Cheers

Dave

We work closely with TMS and they have the entire price list.   I will be visiting them next month. We don't disclose the cost of upgrades because we do that when we create the upgrade.   In general it will be similar to the past.,  BMW also won't tell you what a new car costs next year.   The reason we don't publish the different offers is because we used to offer 6 different products with different terms with potentially MSA's, Lite versions and student versions,  It makes for a very complicated matrix.

Cheers

Dave"

 

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