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R22 Wishlist


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I assumed that a thread about R22 Wishlist already existed but after 10 seconds of searching, nothing was found.

 

So Please list your TOP 5 things you would like to see added or improved in Cinema 4D R22

in order of priority (1 being most important to you)

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1 - Maintaining Perpetual licensing - Real monthly subscription where pay per month

2 - I'm looking forward to the UV announcement. Well that's me guessing there'll be some announcement about that given Dave's cryptic tweet a while ago.

3 - Some early indications of workflow integration between Red Giant & MAXON

4 - Further integration of RedShift - even though i mainly use team render / octane I'm interested to see how RedShift progresses

5 - Mind meld between user and C4D where if I think it in my brain it will just appear in the viewport... with perfect geometry. If this can't be done then the obvious ones of performance improvements, feature improvements, bodypaint update,  etc.

 

 

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-a compositor module with redgiant tools for post fx in c4d. 

-redshift integration for c4d shaders like tiles, shapes and other things. and also some usual nodes like substance have.

-volumetric sclupting like 3dcoat. and some addional sclupt brushes.

-library assets for redsift. all materials should be as a alternatie. c4d can ask on instal and we can choose our version for our render engine. MAXON buyed redshift but already all materials only for standart render.... its weird. all of library nearliy useless. every time you should re create materials... autoconvert not works for most situations... so will be good if c4d ccontain a redshift version of libraries. or a addional redshift material pack.

-update for old fossilized tools. particles, dynamics, uvs and others can be updated

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On 3/31/2020 at 7:20 PM, kmls said:

-a compositor module with redgiant tools for post fx in c4d. 

-redshift integration for c4d shaders like tiles, shapes and other things. and also some usual nodes like substance have.

-volumetric sclupting like 3dcoat. and some addional sclupt brushes.

-library assets for redsift. all materials should be as a alternatie. c4d can ask on instal and we can choose our version for our render engine. MAXON buyed redshift but already all materials only for standart render.... its weird. all of library nearliy useless. every time you should re create materials... autoconvert not works for most situations... so will be good if c4d ccontain a redshift version of libraries. or a addional redshift material pack.

-update for old fossilized tools. particles, dynamics, uvs and others can be updated

I think you are going to see R22 focus more on VFX work.  All the elements are there with field forces and OpenVDB support.  I would like to see improvements to AR or PR that help support native integration of a fluid simulation system built into C4D rather than rely on Redshift for volumetric rendering of VDB data sets.  Hopefully some of that RedGiant code for Trapcode Particular makes its way into a native C4D fluid simulation package.  I would also like to see AR or PR updated with better glows, volumetric lights, etc....again pulling on Red Giant.  In essence, if you are not going to make Redshift native to C4D, then please improve its existing render engines...I mean, we are paying high-end prices so we should expect those improvements in C4D core without having to pay more for Redshift.

 

Next up would be a complete admission of defeat when it comes to Bodypaint and admit that Substance Painter is the ONLY way to go.  Therefore, focus on complete integration with all Allegorithmic products.  

 

Finally, please do something with the monthly billing.  I know that the whole license server implementation was a big thing for MAXON in 2019, but you really need to step up the billing side of it.  Also, now that you have more products than just C4D, start to compare yourself to Adobe Cloud.  Honestly (while I would never thought these words would ever be typed by me), I would prefer Adobe Cloud's subscription program over what MAXON offers in their subscription program (yes...it's that bad and the fact that you only get 1 product from MAXON rather than a full suite of Adobe products, then by comparison MAXON's subscription program is far more expensive).

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No one wants speed improvements? Part of the reason for the core rewrite was to make C4D handle more complex scenes and be a lot quicker. As far as I know you're all still waiting. So for me, not that it really matters since I no longer use C4D my top 5 would be:

 

Faster / handle more objects

Bodypaint / UV tools replaced. Unbelieveable that the UV tools still haven't been replaced

Modelling tool enhancements e.g. proper symmetry modelling, Bridge tool enhancements, modelling fall offs.

Thinking Particles replaced. Alternatively admit defeat and remove TP and make X-Particles the default particle system. Do some sort of deal where users can buy X-Particles at a reduced price

Lower the price of monthly subscriptions. Given the world we currently find ourselves in with Covid-19 things are going to be tough financially for a few years. Unless the price comes down those charging hefty subscriptions could struggle. Blender is starting to look mighty attractive at the moment.

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Object handling, viewport and speed improvements were on my list but completely slipped my mind.  Also not sure why we can't get a good symmetry tool after 10+ years of asking.  I think I just gave up.  And I do agree that the bridge tool needs to be a bit more context intuitive - maybe that goes with the viewport enhancements as the bridge tool is rather dumb in interpreting your selections in a crowded scene view.  Now, that could be operator error so I will defer to the experts here.

 

Modeling falloff would also be nice....but couldn't that be replicated with fields as I thought fields will work on polygon objects.  Again - I defer to the experts.

 

Relative to X-Particles -- Insydium would only take up that deal to sell a license at a reduced price ONLY if they raise their maintenance prices.  As I already own a license, that is of no benefit to me.  Hey, I have already taken it up the shorts for being a Studio owner.  For the past 10 years I had to pay higher maintenance prices but all the release upgrades were Prime, Broadcast, etc focused.  Please don't do that to me with my plugins!!!  Nope!  I want MAXON to put a little sweat into their particle/fluid solution as their implementations are usually just as brilliant.

 

Yes....time for the new normal relative to financial recovery from COVID-19.  Something's got to give and right now (as I mentioned before) MAXON's licensing plan is very expensive relative to what others are doing.  So I agree that MAXON needs to rethink not where they are today on their licensing plan but where their customers are today financially.  

 

I have heard economists say that COVID-19 is accelerating retail trends.  Those that were struggling (eg. no web-portal or on-line buying platform) will die quicker and those that are strong will get more business (eg. Amazon).  They were on their way to collapse anyway but COVID-19 just accelerated their decline.  Maybe the same can be said for DCC software.  In tough economic times, people and companies change how they spend and they change fast.  Maybe  Blender will get an even bigger big boost from all this than what 2.8 gave them: The software is free and powerful, plugins and training is plentiful and cheap.  Blenders biggest barrier has always been their UI.  So if 2.8 taught us anything, then going forward  every time they make their  UI a little more mainstream and a little easier to use, it is a game changer for EVERYONE.   Given the rate the pump out new releases....that should be unsettling to their competition - especially MAXON.

 

Exciting times ahead.

 

Dave

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While there's many, many smaller things I'd like to see, these are the ones  that come to mind for me:

  • Faster rendering. ProRender was obviously a complete waste of time. Nobody uses it. If I want GPU rendering right now I either use Redshift or Octane. I think C4D needs an up-to-date CPU and/or GPU renderer like Arnold. The standard and physical render is just WAY too slow nowadays if you want to do anything even close to realistic. Seriously, just add a default PBR Material to a sphere, add an HDRI and look at it crawl.
  • UV-Tools. This is so, so overdue. In a package that is as expensive as C4D I should not have to rely on external programs if I want to keep my sanity while doing UV's on complex objects. Yes, the tools we have work (for the most part) but they're not fun to use at all and make UVing an even more tedious task.
  • X-Presso UI overhaul. X-Presso is nice and works for everything I want to do with it (although I'm sure it could use some love for the powerusers with new nodes etc) but the UI is fiddly as hell, connecting things can be a pain. Look at Substance Designer if you want to see an amazing nodebased workflow. Or just use the the new material node system.
  • Subscription model adjustments. At the very least we need true monthly payment, not the monthly-but-not-really price we have right now. Honestly, I was so excited when they announced the subscription but the moment I saw the pricing... just no. Especially, as others have said, in the upcoming months and years that I can imagine will be a pain for freelancers especially. Preferably we'd get a true monthly payment and several price tiers for different revenue levels, just like the substance suite has. In this business it makes no sense to me that a freelancer has to pay as much as a big studio.
  • Further enhancements to the field forces. What we have right now is already a major, major step towards actual particles that C4D was severely lacking in the last years, unless you wanted to make a deep dive into TP which is... well confusing compared to other particle solutions. Honestly I am pretty sure some trapcode particular code will find it's way into C4D so I'm not too concerned there. I just don't think it will be R22.

I think with the whole Covid-19 story MAXON really, really need to get their sh** together. I'm sure the financials for the upcoming years will push MANY artists to Blender and if the packages don't deliver a good reason to stay it might not look too good.

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Modify the node system to the production level.

At the moment, huge functionality is hidden there, but its capabilities are almost useless. The physical render is too slow, AR gives a bad result and often not faster than the physical. Other production renders cannot use the full power of nodes. Now it looks like a piece of another program inside C4D.

This system needs to be improved so that the data from it can be used in deformers. Add the ability to read tags directly into the material nodes, as implemented in Xpresso.
I like that this system makes full use of all the threads of my processor, which indicates its multithreading. Unfortunately, it’s incredibly long with updates in the viewport.
If you change one value in a node, then the whole graph is updated even where it is unnecessary. In Blender Eevee, this happens instantly.
For example, the Bifrost system in Autodesk products updates only the necessary parameters, and not the entire hierarchy of nodes.
They have achieved impressive results in the latest releases of their programs. 300 million polygons per window with acceptable FPS.
Another problem is that the shader in the editor window looks completely different than when rendering.
I hope that Vulkan API, USD, UDIM, Pitex, Adaptiv Dispalacemend, a modern particle system (water, fire, smoke) will come to us

The simulation system is also stuck and cannot solve old problems. There are no tools for working with normals, it is very important to set up the correct shading for game models. Why not add Fields for phong tag, for Atom Array, Polygon Reduction?

In any case, it all depends on MAXON, they have a good example of BodyPaint - to be a leader and become backward.

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21 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Maybe the same can be said for DCC software.  In tough economic times, people and companies change how they spend and they change fast.  Maybe  Blender will get an even bigger big boost from all this than what 2.8 gave them: The software is free and powerful, plugins and training is plentiful and cheap.  Blenders biggest barrier has always been their UI.  So if 2.8 taught us anything, then going forward  every time they make their  UI a little more mainstream and a little easier to use, it is a game changer for EVERYONE.   Given the rate the pump out new releases....that should be unsettling to their competition - especially MAXON.

 

I agree. AutoDesk announced 2 days ago that Max Indie is now available world-wide for $250 (per year rent) for any indie with an income lower than $100.000.

 

Allow me to quote the following opinion from https://blenderartists.org/t/3ds-max-gets-a-slap-in-the-face/1154106/177:

Quote

Off the record and simply my own opinion. This is not the last we will see of price drops.This is nothing I have heard on the beta forums. And it is just opinion. But I see that Blender is going to drive down the price of software over the next 10 years to the point that price to use any software will no longer be an issue. It will be less than your cell phone bill - or even cup of coffee in some cases - across the boards.

Subscription is here to stay. Perpetual is on the way out. The future is software rental, dirt cheap. And people won’t even give it a second thought.

 

For MAXON to survive in the long run, just like AutoDesk, they will have to adjust to the changes ahead.

The way I see it, is that C4d is in desperate need of a better built-in render solution. Standard/Physical is terribly outdated, slow, and can't match the quality nor the speed of modern competitors. Redshift should be included by default in C4d. This WILL happen in a few years. As far as I can tell, the only reason MAXON hasn't included it yet is because they a) milking the cash cow, and 2) management might not completely realize what is happening in the 3D DCC market.

 

I just checked: renting C4d with Redshift would cost me ~can$ 1300. PER YEAR. While major parts of C4d lag behind the competition, including the free Blender. And C4d development trundles at a glacial pace compared to Blender - not to mention the ever-increasing ecosystem of plugins and support. Heck, I noticed that *.blend files have become one of the standard offered file formats on many 3d model asset sites in the past two years.

 

MAXON will not be able to maintain their current business model for very long. Not with AutoDesk, Houdini, and Blender offering indies a far more viable cost model. And it's going to get worse for 3D DCC companies. With the economy's down-turn, C4d's yearly rental model has become quite repulsive - insulting even, when compared to its competitors.

 

Anyway, back on topic. To survive, C4d ought to:

- include Redshift as a replacement for the decrepit Standard/Physical at no extra cost. It is quite telling that many (if not most) C4d users rely on third-party / Redshift renderers.

- improve the overall performance. Viewport, dealing with large number of objects.

- reduce the rental price to compete with AutoDesk (at the very least).

- vastly improve and modernize components such as BodyPaint, Hair, physics, UV tool set, particle system, ...

- Focus on improving tools and performance of MoGraph. Know you niche.

- overall less reliance on expensive plugins to patch holes in base feature sets

 

All open doors, of course. Some have been open for years and years.

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54 minutes ago, hvanderwegen said:

 

I agree. AutoDesk announced 2 days ago that Max Indie is now available world-wide for $250 (per year rent) for any indie with an income lower than $100.000.

 

Allow me to quote the following opinion from https://blenderartists.org/t/3ds-max-gets-a-slap-in-the-face/1154106/177:

 

For MAXON to survive in the long run, just like AutoDesk, they will have to adjust to the changes ahead.

The way I see it, is that C4d is in desperate need of a better built-in render solution. Standard/Physical is terribly outdated, slow, and can't match the quality nor the speed of modern competitors. Redshift should be included by default in C4d. This WILL happen in a few years. As far as I can tell, the only reason MAXON hasn't included it yet is because they a) milking the cash cow, and 2) management might not completely realize what is happening in the 3D DCC market.

 

I just checked: renting C4d with Redshift would cost me ~can$ 1300. PER YEAR. While major parts of C4d lag behind the competition, including the free Blender. And C4d development trundles at a glacial pace compared to Blender - not to mention the ever-increasing ecosystem of plugins and support. Heck, I noticed that *.blend files have become one of the standard offered file formats on many 3d model asset sites in the past two years.

 

MAXON will not be able to maintain their current business model for very long. Not with AutoDesk, Houdini, and Blender offering indies a far more viable cost model. And it's going to get worse for 3D DCC companies. With the economy's down-turn, C4d's yearly rental model has become quite repulsive - insulting even, when compared to its competitors.

 

I think Mr. McGavran should print this out, keep it by his bedside and read it every morning when he first get's up.

 

As to why Redshift is not included in C4D is clearly A) They are milking the cash cow.   Given their acquisition spree, they have to be.  I think this will not be a good year for MAXON.  I understand that the first full year of a subscription model is always the worst and now you have COVID19 on top of it.  Plus Blender is putting the pressure on them and essentially turning fully featured DCC software into a commodity.   Yeah....not a good combination.  Oh...and MAXON just made a few big acquisitions on top of all this.  My only suggestion to those who have to navigate these water is drink Pepto Bismol once a daily.  Read your post, drink Pepto Bismol, get up (skip showering as you are probably working from home anyway), and get to work.

 

Also, wasn't one of the "advantages" of a subscription plan the mid-year release of new features?  Okay...we are 6 months in.  Let's see what happens.  I  mean we are talking about new features for R22, but they did sell subscriptions on the basis of mid-year updates.  So is it naive to expect some of these requests being fulfilled early?  You tell me.

 

Dave

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-create a C4D indie license. All functionalities of a full license for 250€/year, targeting freelancers and hobbyists. 
-Make redshift the default renderer once the program is ported to metal, free of charge 

-overhaul of the modeling toolkit

-Fluid/particle sim tool

-Faster viewport 

-New UV tool

-Harmonisation of the material system (the reflectance channel is highly confusing)

 

 

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