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David Davis

S22 Thoughts on Subscription Only

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I read your posting that after switching from perpetual to subscription you couldn’t use 21 anymore, something that is clearly stated differently in the MAXON shop. 
This part 

Quote

For example, if you have R21 now and "upgrade" to S22 at a discount, then R21 will no longer activate.   I think (and hope) that just paying full price for S22 still keeps R21 going. 

Reads as if you expected to have to pay full subscription price for S22 to be able to use R21. 

If you had referred to perpetual instead of simply R21 the meaning would have been clear. 

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3 minutes ago, srek said:

I read your posting that after switching from perpetual to subscription you couldn’t use 21 anymore, something that is clearly stated differently in the MAXON shop. 
This part 

Reads as if you expected to have to pay full subscription price for S22 to be able to use R21. 

If you had referred to perpetual instead of simply R21 the meaning would have been clear. 

 

You needed to go no further than the next paragraph to get that understanding.

 

Quote

For example, if you have R21 now and "upgrade" to S22 at a discount, then R21 will no longer activate.   I think (and hope) that just paying full price for S22 still keeps R21 going.  So beware of that S22 discount....there is no free lunch with MAXON.

 

R22 will be interesting.  What they charge for it will determine for many what their future path is with C4D.  R21 was offered at the same MSA price as R20 but I think  those days are gone.  Didn't MAXON announce that R21 was the last of the MSA program?  So for those who like owning rather than renting, we are into the full one-rev upgrade pricing  -  the price you would pay if you missed renewing your MSA in time. Notice how the MAXON shops don't have a published upgrade cost for Perpetual licenses. They say to call MAXON for a price. Yeah...that keeps me up at night.  I am estimating that the price to upgrade from R21 to R22 (with "R" now meaning "perpetual") will cost around $950. 

 

But really, as  a MAXON employee I find your comment interesting as I would have assumed by MAXON adopting the "S" in S22 to mean "subscription"  would have implied that it was company decision to also imply that the "R" now means "perpetual".  With "S" meaning "subscription" what is the short hand then for a perpetual license?  How would you distinguish S22 from a perpetual license for the 22nd release?

 

Dave

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The confusion was regarding 21 not 22

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Hi srek,

 

thanks for being here to clarefy things.

 

I find it unfortunate, that MAXON is forcing its customers into a position where clarifications like this are necesarry, because firstly it is easy to loose perpetual by just updating and secondly by the existence of different update paths, which are not properly published on the website. So it seems to be possible with an R20 to start a subscription at a reduced price without losing the perpetual license, while there is no such possibility for owners of an R21 perpetual license (without losing the perpetual license). Please correct me if I am wrong.

So it is not only because of the unwillingness and lack of understanding of the customers, but also because of MAXON's unnecessarily strict policy that these misunderstandings arise and that the corresponding discussions never end.

 

best regards

Jops

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Look... it's very clear and straightforward

 

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10 hours ago, Jops said:

I find it unfortunate, that MAXON is forcing its customers into a position where clarifications like this are necesarry, because firstly it is easy to loose perpetual by just updating and secondly by the existence of different update paths, which are not properly published on the website. So it seems to be possible with an R20 to start a subscription at a reduced price without losing the perpetual license, while there is no such possibility for owners of an R21 perpetual license (without losing the perpetual license). Please correct me if I am wrong.

So it is not only because of the unwillingness and lack of understanding of the customers, but also because of MAXON's unnecessarily strict policy that these misunderstandings arise and that the corresponding discussions never end.

Hi,

while i agree that some things could have made clearer by MAXON, the biggest problems i percieved came from people interpreting what was said in a much more negative way than we ever expected and spreading that opinion as truth. That is the biggest reason why i try to clarify things.

I see what information you see missing and to be honest i think we just never gave the situation much thought and missed it, since the initial introduction of subscription was a so much larger hurdle. In cases like that i can only hope customers give sales a ring and double check until we come around fixing things.
The very little extra money we would make from people ordering incorrectly due to missing or wrongly interpreted information is not worth any kind of trouble to our users, there simply is no intention by us behind this. The other side of the problem is that due to the many different ways licenses were handled before it is not at all simple to cover every situation without spreading even more insecurity. Again i hope that everyone who does not think his or her case matches the available options gets in contact with sales.

From what i see people here and on other forums often simply underestimate the amount of work and the complexity of changing everything so we can offer subscription and multiple versions per year. It is just a huge pile of work and mistakes are easy to make.

If in doubt about what we are doing, please keep one thing in mind, yes, we want your money (after all we are a business and personaly i like my paycheck to be on time), but we are in the business of creating tools and to stay in business we want you to use these tools to make money for as long and as good as possible.

Cheers

Björn

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Appreciate the candour..IT IS A BUSINESS AND THE NAME OF THE GAME IS TO MAKE PROFIT..I have no issues with that. We can take it or leave it. Cinema 4D is mainly therapy for me..i sit for hours just doodling and it works out a lot cheaper than using a shrink or a bordello. I just cannot get my head around all this MSA stuff and subscription stuff..basically If I can afford it I buy it..end of...err C4D not bordellos..ex Night Taxi driver..I never paid...

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58 minutes ago, srek said:

Hi,

while i agree that some things could have made clearer by MAXON, the biggest problems i percieved came from people interpreting what was said in a much more negative way than we ever expected and spreading that opinion as truth. That is the biggest reason why i try to clarify things.

I see what information you see missing and to be honest i think we just never gave the situation much thought and missed it, since the initial introduction of subscription was a so much larger hurdle. In cases like that i can only hope customers give sales a ring and double check until we come around fixing things.
The very little extra money we would make from people ordering incorrectly due to missing or wrongly interpreted information is not worth any kind of trouble to our users, there simply is no intention by us behind this. The other side of the problem is that due to the many different ways licenses were handled before it is not at all simple to cover every situation without spreading even more insecurity. Again i hope that everyone who does not think his or her case matches the available options gets in contact with sales.

From what i see people here and on other forums often simply underestimate the amount of work and the complexity of changing everything so we can offer subscription and multiple versions per year. It is just a huge pile of work and mistakes are easy to make.

If in doubt about what we are doing, please keep one thing in mind, yes, we want your money (after all we are a business and personaly i like my paycheck to be on time), but we are in the business of creating tools and to stay in business we want you to use these tools to make money for as long and as good as possible.

Cheers

Björn

Hi Björn,

 

i really appreciate this statement. firstly because it contains information, but also because it explains MAXON's motivations and above all because it expresses regret for the situation we are in. All these threads are based on the fact that the users appreciate the program and that they depend on it to a certain extent. Losing control over an important part of your working day and income is scary. learning a new program is not impossible, but it's still a lot of work. i think most customers understand that MAXON has to earn money, but the 3D daily rates haven't changed much in 20 years or even dropped (at least here in Germany). No wonder some people are switching to Blender (which won't do their daily rates any good either). when the MSA costs were increased the year before last i didn't have the slightest problem with it, but an increase like the one now pending for the perpetual license (compared to MSA) is not justified. especially considering that perpetual owners have already given MAXON a lot of money, a higher price than for subscription is not understandable. The feeling that MAXON wants to drive its customers into a greater dependency (which of course already exists to a certain extent) is unfortunately obvious.
Nevertheless, I think it's very good that there is the possibility to chat with MAXON employees here. I am confident that this will help to eliminate some misinformation and improve mutual understanding.

 

best regards

Florian

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9 hours ago, srek said:

Hi,

while i agree that some things could have made clearer by MAXON, the biggest problems i percieved came from people interpreting what was said in a much more negative way than we ever expected and spreading that opinion as truth. That is the biggest reason why i try to clarify things.

I see what information you see missing and to be honest i think we just never gave the situation much thought and missed it, since the initial introduction of subscription was a so much larger hurdle. In cases like that i can only hope customers give sales a ring and double check until we come around fixing things.
The very little extra money we would make from people ordering incorrectly due to missing or wrongly interpreted information is not worth any kind of trouble to our users, there simply is no intention by us behind this. The other side of the problem is that due to the many different ways licenses were handled before it is not at all simple to cover every situation without spreading even more insecurity. Again i hope that everyone who does not think his or her case matches the available options gets in contact with sales.

From what i see people here and on other forums often simply underestimate the amount of work and the complexity of changing everything so we can offer subscription and multiple versions per year. It is just a huge pile of work and mistakes are easy to make.

If in doubt about what we are doing, please keep one thing in mind, yes, we want your money (after all we are a business and personaly i like my paycheck to be on time), but we are in the business of creating tools and to stay in business we want you to use these tools to make money for as long and as good as possible.

Cheers

Björn

Bjorn,

 

Thank you for this.  In light of the email that I received from MAXON USA (reference email from MAXON USA provided in previous post found here), I hope you understand that my views were based on first hand evidence.  Very hard to misinterpret the "deal created exclusively for [me]" as anything but a bad deal.  That deal left me with only two conclusions:  1) it was designed purely to move me from perpetual to subscription and 2) It offered me nothing in return other than converting the perpetual R21 license that I just paid $720 for 3 months earlier to a 2 year subscription deal at a savings of $624.  I lose my R21 perpetual license and I lose ($720 -$624) $96.  

 

So that is pretty hard evidence for my "perception" on how MAXON "intends" to treat perpetual license holders.  I appreciate your request for us to have empathy for MAXON as they try to work through their internal confusion with all the changes they are making with their licensing schemes.  But at the same, in light of the evidence I have provided, MAXON needs to have empathy for the user as well.  What other conclusions could I draw from that email?  I know you suggested that we call the sales team in situations like these, but that email was pretty clearly written and straight forward.  So why is it incumbent on the customer to call MAXON and say "Hey....you just sent me an email outlining a really crappy deal.  Was that a mistake or was it really your intent to trick me out of my perpetual license while making more money for yourself in the process?"  Even if it was sent to me by mistake, MAXON needs to take ownership of the perceptions they create with deals like that.  MAXON needs to change the customer's perception of MAXON - that is not the customers job as you suggest.

 

Therefore, I really do appreciate the explanation you provided but I also caution that MAXON really should develop and publish a defined strategy on how they want to proceed with perpetual license upgrades and/or conversions to "and from" subscriptions.  If they are going to offer both then they need to clearly define a path for the user on how to live with both.  Peddling "exclusive deals" that really are not deals does not preserve the trust we have in MAXON.  Silence on this whole issue  does not preserve the trust we have with MAXON.  In all honesty, the explanation that license management is a complex issue for MAXON to work out begins to lose its validity with each passing day....and it has been 8 months.  

 

I know you do a tremendous job in maintaining the quality of the program (one of the unsung heroes at MAXON) but considering that you are also out here in the Cafe and asking for evidence relative to our perceptions on pricing and licenses, then I have to conclude that you are also here to listen as well.  Therefore, my hope is that you take the evidence that I have provided and bring it back to MAXON with this simple message:  "Users are upset.  They have a right to be as we have created confusion.  MAXON needs to fix this as soon as possible in a way that preserves everyone's interests and to everyone's mutual benefit"

 

Dave

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On 5/3/2020 at 5:26 PM, 3D-Pangel said:

Okay....to be clear, the point in question in my previous post was the following:  If you switch from a perpetual license to a subscription AT A DISCOUNTED PRICE, then the perpetual license is deactivated.   The proof I have is this letter from MAXON USA received on January 27th (note the highlighted sections):

image.thumb.png.2f58b9b19617cc306626add7a8a5adde.png

 

Therefore, by conversion to subscription implies perpetual goes away.  Honestly, why would I take this offer?  I already paid for R21 perpetual and you are going to take that away from me by giving me two years of subscriptions.   The $624 savings you are giving me doesn't even come close to the $720 for the R21 perpetual license I paid you just 3 months earlier for the last MSA program being offered.  So that offer from MAXON in January is a losing offer.  I was born at night....but it wasn't last night.  

 

Now, I can anticipate that your argument for S22 will be that this is an upgrade and not a "license conversion".  Fair point.  But honestly, all the messaging from MAXON to date (even in a fairly long thread starting last September around subscriptions) around moving from perpetual to subscription has been that this is a license conversion.  Add to that the bone-headed offer you gave me in January shows that the agenda is to entice people into subscriptions at a discount in order to cancel their R21 perpetual licenses.  I mean, there was nothing that made that offer enticing as S22 was not even released yet.  So if you think people were going to accept a perpetual to subscription conversion in the absence of any upgrade, what makes me think you would behave any differently now when you actually do have an upgrade to offer?

 

Finally, I think it is fair to say that pricing information on subscriptions is very straight forward and easy to find.  Pricing information on perpetual license upgrades or switching from perpetual to subscription  ALWAYS comes with the caveat "Please call MAXON for details" or "Pricing is not yet defined".    You need to go no further than the MAXON web-site (scroll to the notes at the bottom of the pricing page) or MAXON's own FAQ page to find this evidence.

 

In the absence of all other information, the safest way to proceed with my money is look at MAXON's past behavior and plan accordingly.

 

Now Srek....why the challenge to my statement?  Do you know something that we don't? 

 

And do you have evidence to support it?

 

Have a nice day.

 

Dave

 

 

EXACTLY! This has had me scratching my head as well. For those who just paid retail for, say R21, the retail price could be roughly 3500.00 USD. This is serious money obviously. So just a couple of years after their purchase one has to get on a subscription path which translates into always paying, never achieving a flat rate price upgrade. Let me be clear that I fully support MAXON and Cinema 4D and appreciate the small market they serve and realize they need revenue to continue to develop and evolve their product, but I am left questioning what exactly is happening here. I absolutely welcome someone to set me straight here, what am I missing? From my POV all I see is my recent purchase of several thousand bucks just translating now into an endless subscription fee. I hope we get more feedback from C4D users, the community, I want to know what people think of this. 

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