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David Davis

S22 Thoughts on Subscription Only

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1 minute ago, Jops said:

when I started there everyone asked for 3d Max users. I havend had that request for the last 5 Years. So I guess it taks 15 years. Maxons situation is better than the one of 3d max back then, but the direction is clear. One teacher at university, that I work with said to me, after a first time glimpse at cinema " wow, that looks so oldschool compared to the new blender" that is not my oppinion by the way, but it illustrates how wide spread blender allready is. I really hated Blender for a long time, and I still prefere MAXON by far, but as you said. If everyone is socialized with blender c4d will get problems in 10 to 15 years. 

I think until the recent UI redesign C4D did look a little oldschool, but now with the new dark interface it's mostly fine. It's just more minimalistic and minimalistic UI design is just the thing currently.

Up until 2.6 I did "hate" Blender too. I used it occasionally for certain things like simple fluid simulations, but the software always irked me with it's weird rules and behaviour. I've recently played around with it again and honestly, with the new interface it's just way easier to use. I still don't like how modifiers work and how certain nondestructive workflows are just not possible but the software has become insanely good. Then we have Cylces, which is, while also slow, better in pretty much any aspect than what we get with C4D Standard / Physical.

I personally don't think that it'll take 10-15 years... shorter. Blender has been up and coming for years now. When I went to University a couple of years back we got taught C4D in a course, but everybody that already used some form of 3D in their projects used Blender. That was 7 years ago. Out of 40 people in my year I was the only person to use C4D and honestly if I didn't start many years earlier with C4D I probably would have learned Blender as well.

 

I'm in the same boat as you. I have an emotional attachement to C4D which is pretty stupid if you think about it, it's just a piece of software with a company behind it that wants your money. I'm happy that MAXON is doing well and that C4D still exists and still is the most easy to use tool for anybody that wants to make pretty pictures in 3D. But I don't like the direction they're taking at all with their pricing. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it except not give them any of our money anymore, but that is just not going to happen for most people.

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All this talk of MAXON as "The Company" and the standard driver of all capitalist companies is..PROFIT..How many of you are actually professionals using Cinema 4D to well..make profit ? What song do you sing to your clients when you have to raise prices to account for MAXON raising prices in order to make profit ?

I am perhaps one of the lucky few who do this purely for the fun of it..I sell the odd tutorial to cover the costs of running the software/electrics and kit  oh ok and for the odd spliff.

Not having a dig at anyone in particular but MAXON is just doing what the sentient corporate beast does..seeking profit at every opportunity and it's employees are playing their roles using plausible deniability "only doing their jobs"..and good luck to you all..it floats my boat.

And I think it is safe to say that many of your clients are..profit making companies.

I think there are maybe a lot of pots calling out to a lot of kettles

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There are profits in long term and profits in short term. Profit depends on many variables , starting on trust, trust is achieved by a constancy of behavior and obviously for a start does includes not punishing the user base, that fundamental framework of profit seeking was destroyed.

 

MAXON lost a lot of goodwill and influence in last years due to the technical failure of core upgrade - does not matter anymore if in 5 years C4D is finally what many here wish it to be , time lost does not come back -  and its recent business choices. That affect profit.

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19 minutes ago, Pinin said:

There are profits in long term and profits in short term. Profit depends on many variables , starting on trust, trust is achieved by a constancy of behavior and obviously for a start does includes not punishing the user base, that fundamental framework of profit seeking was destroyed.

 

MAXON lost a lot of goodwill and influence in last years due to the technical failure of core upgrade - does not matter anymore if in 5 years C4D is finally what many here wish it to be , time lost does not come back -  and its recent business choices. That affect profit.

I am not affraid about the short term profit of MAXON. they will get quite a push throug subscription. What I did not understand was the unnecessary alienation of the old userbase. I interpret Srek in such a way that this was not intended... we will see in autumn.

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2 hours ago, DasFrodo said:

Yeah that is exactly what I meant. You can just download Blender. If you don't know anything else you just assume that's how 3D-Software works. Why try anything else?

We'll see how this turns out in the coming years but I bet companies will feel the pressure even more in a couple of years, especially now that many big studios and companies are starting to support Blender with support packages in the hundreds of thousands.

Absolutely agree with you and Jops.

 

Read my Avatar MAXON!!!

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8 minutes ago, Jops said:

I am not affraid about the short term profit of MAXON. they will get quite a push throug subscription. What I did not understand was the unnecessary alienation of the old userbase. I interpret Srek in such a way that this was not intended... we will see in autumn.

I honestly want to believe Srek....I seriously hope that MAXON is trying to repair the trust that was lost in their confusing roll-out of subscriptions.  Unfortunately, after 8 months with nothing done to rectify the situation, you can only conclude the following:

 

  1. MAXON's goal is subscriptions for all.  
  2. MAXON only wants to discourage perpetual licenses.  Withholding Cineversity from perpetual license holders is one indication.  Calling S22 a "different" piece of software to get around the agreements in everyone's R21 MSA agreement is another.  Sorry...it is the license server that makes S22 different than a perpetual upgrade from R21 to R22 - not the software itself.  
  3. How far MAXON wants to discourage perpetual licenses remains to be seen.  That can be the only reason why there is so little communication on perpetual upgrade pricing.  I don't buy that they are working through the complexities of licenses management....it has been 8 months after all.  If they can release a new version of the software in that time, they can work through a license issue.

Now, if you agree with these conclusions then you also have to ask how many perpetual license holders will this impact?  What makes up a perpetual license holder?  Would multi-seat DCC firms continue with the higher costs of maintaining a perpetual license or switch to the lower cost subscription model?  Probably not.  I think tax laws also favor subscriptions as they can be expensed in the current year whereas perpetual licenses, as a fixed asset to the company, need to be depreciated.  Not sure but the point is that DCC companies are probably in favor of subscriptions.  We have already heard the sentiments of single user perpetual license holders who use C4D to make money.  Hey....to them it is just a higher expense that they can pass off to the client and that higher cost is NOT that significant.

 

So who gets hurt?  The hobbyist.  Especially the hobbyist who has invested a lot in the C4D ecosystem of plugins, tutorials, texture sets and models over the years.  We don't like subscriptions because we have paid dearly over the years (especially Studio owners) and should we fall on hard times, we don't want to lose everything that took us years of our time and our hard earned money to accumulate if we can't make a subscription payment.

 

And honestly, I think MAXON knows this.  But I also think that we are not that significant a portion of their user-base for MAXON to worry about.  Our business does not mean that much to them.  We are probably the last barrier to their long term goal of subscriptions for all anyway.  If they can't get us to subscriptions, then no tears would be shed in the MAXON offices should we move to Blender.

 

Is this all "supposition"?  Absolutely!  But it is based on evidence and actions taken to date.  If anyone has any other rational to explain MAXON's actions, then please speak up -- provided that you have hard evidence to counter my conclusions that there are hard times ahead for the C4D hobbyist.

 

But all is not lost for the C4D hobbyist.  There is Blender.  The Blender development group moves at light speed.  While the UI is a bit quirky, they do have a budding object manager that is starting look very C4D-ish in its design.   For me, what keeps my from deep diving into Blender is the UI.  What keeps me using C4D is Insydium.   I believe that over time Blender's UI will only continue to improve and probably faster than we anticipate now that the ground work has been laid down with R2.8.  Now, as Insydium already has one foot in the Blender world with Cycles-4D, my deepest wish is that they are looking at the huge ground swell of support for Blender in the DCC marketplace and thinking about moving X-Particles to that platform as well.  That would be a huge market for them and free's them from tying their future to the actions of MAXON.

 

As Nigel is fond of saying: "fun times ahead".

 

Dave

 

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I really think people shouldn't drop their MSA, or strike deals with MAXON just because they're releasing a subscription only update. In fact MSA's can be renewed after the release of R22 like always. For new users subscription is probably a more interesting option, but for old time users with MSA, things didnt change that much (probably prices).

 

This S22 actually is more of a beta than a production ready version. It's filled with bugs and performance issues , so i don't recomend professionals to use it and to rely on it. Bugs like the sculpt system that is completly messed up (send an email to MAXON, and they are aware of it) and some bugs related to performance issues also.

 

This version is nice to see some of the new features that will appear in the next R22 release, and hopefully with all the other bugs fixed. I used a trial version, checked the new features and now i'll wait for the september release. For me it's more important a stable and complete release than just a superficial one with stability problems. 

So for everyone with MSAs, just be a little more patient. Don't rush to convert your license type unless u prefer subscription model. Things didnt change that much, and in september we have a decent version to use.

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What do you mean? MSA is no longer a thing, they got rid of it! All you can do now is either Subscribe or wait for the upgrade price, which is unknown at this point.

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3 minutes ago, DasFrodo said:

What do you mean? MSA is no longer a thing, they got rid of it! All you can do now is either Subscribe or wait for the upgrade price, which is unknown at this point.

Agreed.  My initial reaction was "Does Mr. Batista work for MAXON as he is based in Germany?" as that would be the best news I have heard in 8 months.  And if it is true that MAXON is going to permanently continue the MSA program for everyone, I would issue a public apology to MAXON and ship Mr. McGavran a case of his favorite beer for all the aggravation I have caused (provided he share it with as many MAXON employees as he could).  

 

But in reality, I think it is just another example of the level of confusion out there.

 

Dave

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1. MSA Program is replaced with Subscription

2. Subscribers get S22

3. Upgrade pricing similar to last year (non MSA) will be available with our next Perpetual release in the late summer/early fall.

4. New perpetual purchases are also avail at that time same price as now

5. Subscribers will also get this release as a subscription as well.

 

 

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