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S22 Thoughts on Subscription Only


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Hi all, 

What do C4D users think of MAXON's subscription-only upgrade path now that S22 is out?  When I purchased R20 via Toolfarm, my receipt specifically stated I would have access to Cinversity, could not get logged in, then I contacted MAXON and was told I had no access as its now only sub access. I also wonder about the impression of someone buying R20 with "perpetual license" upgrade path in their head. At that time I bought R20 assuming it meant I could upgrade with the same flat fee purchase mechanism. In my opinion, switching to subscription only upgrade is a bit of a "gotcha". I get this is all gray area stuff, simply curious what others think here on the new upgrade path for C4D users who purchased R20 and prior versions for retail price. 

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For the hobbyist who has never made a dime off of the software, annual maintenance costs do add up but the beauty of maintenance over subscription is that you are actually "owning" something at the en

I honestly want to believe Srek....I seriously hope that MAXON is trying to repair the trust that was lost in their confusing roll-out of subscriptions.  Unfortunately, after 8 months with nothing don

*headdesk* I swear, threads about justified criticism always get derailed and mutilated and twisted until the original complaint is no longer even recognizeable.   Marxism, now? Really?

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I am quite shure that we will see a R23 perpetual and maybe even a R25. So i am hopefull, that they will release at least two more perpetual updates. basically nothing changes for you besides the price. while before it was a MSA price it is now a "normal" perpetual price. So I guess you can upgrade just like before every year to a new perpetual version just for 25 to 50% more than you payed for you MSA (Depending of your first MSA purchase date).

But unfortunately I am quite shure, that considering the much to high perpetual price, compared to subscription. we will see a lot of people who just skip the update (I might as well) resulting in MAXON removing perpetual in some years because of "the lack of interesst", while it was basically the decission on the high perpetual price by MAXON. The longer I think about that the clearer it accures to me, that when MAXON is not changing the price of perpetual this is the route things will go. Even if this should not be the intended outcome, MAXON is well aware of this posobility and is willing to sacrefice perpetual.

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Remember that starting with R21,  should you "upgrade" from a down-rev'd perpetual license to the current subscription license at a discount to what the normal subscription price costs, then your "perpetual" license is de-activated.  

 

For example, if you have R21 now and "upgrade" to S22 at a discount, then R21 will no longer activate.   I think (and hope) that just paying full price for S22 still keeps R21 going.  So beware of that S22 discount....there is no free lunch with MAXON.

 

R22 will be interesting.  What they charge for it will determine for many what their future path is with C4D.  R21 was offered at the same MSA price as R20 but I think  those days are gone.  Didn't MAXON announce that R21 was the last of the MSA program?  So for those who like owning rather than renting, we are into the full one-rev upgrade pricing  -  the price you would pay if you missed renewing your MSA in time. Notice how the MAXON shops don't have a published upgrade cost for Perpetual licenses. They say to call MAXON for a price. Yeah...that keeps me up at night.  I am estimating that the price to upgrade from R21 to R22 (with "R" now meaning "perpetual") will cost around $950. 

 

The advantage of the old MSA program to MAXON was that you HAD to renew it before it ran out if you wanted that reduced MSA price for the next release.  Miss that date, and you pay the full upgrade cost.  So that MSA program provided some revenue predictability to MAXON - just like Subscriptions. And that is a good thing for any company.

 

The only benefit to the customer of doing away with the MSA is that you are no longer time bound to give MAXON any money when your R21 MSA period runs out.  Therefore, you can sit on R21 right up until they announce R23 (around Sept, 2021).  The cost for R22 upgrades will be same to you ($950) until they announce R23....so sit, wait, don't give your money to MAXON.  Who knows, maybe if enough of us wait, they drop the price.   That is all we can hope for and it is the only leverage we have (which I admit is not much).

 

If so, I strongly urge all perpetual license holders to DO NOTHING when R22 get's announced.

 

Dave

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16 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

For example, if you have R21 now and "upgrade" to S22 at a discount, then R21 will no longer activate.   I

Can you please provide a source for this?

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10 minutes ago, srek said:

Can you please provide a source for this?

I had a call with your support two days ago and this is exactly what I've been told.

If you take the offer to have 10% for the first year or 20% for two years off of your subscription you basically "turn in" your R21 perpetual and it will not work any longer.

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3 minutes ago, DasFrodo said:

I had a call with your support two days ago and this is exactly what I've been told.

If you take the offer to have 10% for the first year or 20% for two years off of your subscription you basically "turn in" your R21 perpetual and it will not work any longer.

In that case you don't have the old R21 perpetual license anymore, but you DO have access to R21. The subscription includes access to it.

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Yes, but if you decide to stop paying subscription you don't have any access to C4D anymore, and I think that was the point made above 🙂

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Are there any courses we can go on to understand all this ? Ones with lots of pictures. If so ..I could write a song about it...........

A blues number of course

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S22 made me miss the golden days, when you owned the software CD and license key!! Software developers back then made money too.

I still have my Alias Wavefront Maya 3 CDs 😄.

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On 5/2/2020 at 8:47 AM, srek said:

Can you please provide a source for this?

Okay....to be clear, the point in question in my previous post was the following:  If you switch from a perpetual license to a subscription AT A DISCOUNTED PRICE, then the perpetual license is deactivated.   The proof I have is this letter from MAXON USA received on January 27th (note the highlighted sections):

image.thumb.png.2f58b9b19617cc306626add7a8a5adde.png

 

Therefore, by conversion to subscription implies perpetual goes away.  Honestly, why would I take this offer?  I already paid for R21 perpetual and you are going to take that away from me by giving me two years of subscriptions.   The $624 savings you are giving me doesn't even come close to the $720 for the R21 perpetual license I paid you just 3 months earlier for the last MSA program being offered.  So that offer from MAXON in January is a losing offer.  I was born at night....but it wasn't last night.  

 

Now, I can anticipate that your argument for S22 will be that this is an upgrade and not a "license conversion".  Fair point.  But honestly, all the messaging from MAXON to date (even in a fairly long thread starting last September around subscriptions) around moving from perpetual to subscription has been that this is a license conversion.  Add to that the bone-headed offer you gave me in January shows that the agenda is to entice people into subscriptions at a discount in order to cancel their R21 perpetual licenses.  I mean, there was nothing that made that offer enticing as S22 was not even released yet.  So if you think people were going to accept a perpetual to subscription conversion in the absence of any upgrade, what makes me think you would behave any differently now when you actually do have an upgrade to offer?

 

Finally, I think it is fair to say that pricing information on subscriptions is very straight forward and easy to find.  Pricing information on perpetual license upgrades or switching from perpetual to subscription  ALWAYS comes with the caveat "Please call MAXON for details" or "Pricing is not yet defined".    You need to go no further than the MAXON web-site (scroll to the notes at the bottom of the pricing page) or MAXON's own FAQ page to find this evidence.

 

In the absence of all other information, the safest way to proceed with my money is look at MAXON's past behavior and plan accordingly.

 

Now Srek....why the challenge to my statement?  Do you know something that we don't? 

 

And do you have evidence to support it?

 

Have a nice day.

 

Dave

 

 

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I read your posting that after switching from perpetual to subscription you couldn’t use 21 anymore, something that is clearly stated differently in the MAXON shop. 
This part 

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For example, if you have R21 now and "upgrade" to S22 at a discount, then R21 will no longer activate.   I think (and hope) that just paying full price for S22 still keeps R21 going. 

Reads as if you expected to have to pay full subscription price for S22 to be able to use R21. 

If you had referred to perpetual instead of simply R21 the meaning would have been clear. 

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3 minutes ago, srek said:

I read your posting that after switching from perpetual to subscription you couldn’t use 21 anymore, something that is clearly stated differently in the MAXON shop. 
This part 

Reads as if you expected to have to pay full subscription price for S22 to be able to use R21. 

If you had referred to perpetual instead of simply R21 the meaning would have been clear. 

 

You needed to go no further than the next paragraph to get that understanding.

 

Quote

For example, if you have R21 now and "upgrade" to S22 at a discount, then R21 will no longer activate.   I think (and hope) that just paying full price for S22 still keeps R21 going.  So beware of that S22 discount....there is no free lunch with MAXON.

 

R22 will be interesting.  What they charge for it will determine for many what their future path is with C4D.  R21 was offered at the same MSA price as R20 but I think  those days are gone.  Didn't MAXON announce that R21 was the last of the MSA program?  So for those who like owning rather than renting, we are into the full one-rev upgrade pricing  -  the price you would pay if you missed renewing your MSA in time. Notice how the MAXON shops don't have a published upgrade cost for Perpetual licenses. They say to call MAXON for a price. Yeah...that keeps me up at night.  I am estimating that the price to upgrade from R21 to R22 (with "R" now meaning "perpetual") will cost around $950. 

 

But really, as  a MAXON employee I find your comment interesting as I would have assumed by MAXON adopting the "S" in S22 to mean "subscription"  would have implied that it was company decision to also imply that the "R" now means "perpetual".  With "S" meaning "subscription" what is the short hand then for a perpetual license?  How would you distinguish S22 from a perpetual license for the 22nd release?

 

Dave

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