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3 minutes ago, FLima said:

@CerberaI am now curious...  
have you tried Blender? 
And no, im not from the "Blender" cult hehe, I've been trying it for a while.. but still.. havent really felt "at home" in there.
but the ideals behind it, the immense support and heaps of tutorials, always makes me think about it.

 

Yes, and impressed as I am by the improvements they have made I just can't get with it. I still don't like the interface, the shortcuts, the look of geo, and a great number of other things about it. As of right now, Cinema is definitely where I prefer to be. Having said that, I am not mad keen on Maya's GUI either. And I only don't mind Max's because I have so much experience there myself, and it was where I started. Modo I do like the look of more than both those, but nothing quite as much as Cinema 😉 

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Cerbera, just wondering why you stick to C4D if modeling is your area of expertise. In my opinion, there are better packages out there for this type of work like: Modo, Max and...Maya. I love C4D but I grew tired of having to resort to plugins like HBmodelling to do simple modeling tasks. 
I still have to learn a lot about Maya’s ways of doing things and yes, the overall UI is a lot more cluttered but for modeling I’d say it is definitely not a problem at all and the features are a lot more comprehensive than C4D. 

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From all of this kind of discussions I simply don´t understand why "freelancers" with income higher than software package price cry about prices...

If software make just 1 dollar  over price what you´ve paid for this software, you´re profitable.

If I do commercially and have income from this work, simply I´ll pay full commercial price. Done.

 

If you make 100k for a year (or 50k or 10k, it´s doesn´t matter), why you want better price for software against user with commercial licence?

 

Different story are hobby/enthusiasts users, especially with zero income. They´re pure "sponsors" of software developers.

With current prices this group will gradually (but for sure) disappear...

 

 

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6 hours ago, Adrien said:

Cerbera, just wondering why you stick to C4D if modeling is your area of expertise. In my opinion, there are better packages out there for this type of work like: Modo, Max and...Maya.

 

There's always a better something somewhere, but sometimes you just like the one you've got ! 🙂

 

Of course I do have HB modelling bundle, and am fully aware of all the remaining weaknesses in Cinema's modelling toolset, but TBH I don't find any of them too problematic on a day-to-day level. I model an enormous variety of stuff, and the amount of times I am left genuinely stuck because Cinema can't do something remain very minimal and it is exceptionally rare that I find a problem I can't think my way around using the tools that are available to me here in C4D. I guess I have been using it for so long now that I have just found all the ways round the main problems modellers in Cinema typically face. Also there is a general ramp of improvement to Cinema's modelling tools, and there have been enough improvements in that department (some of which were and remain best in class) over the years to keep me interested and... still here 🙂  

 

Also I remain aware of the continuing problems in other software. For example, Max, after 25 years of trying still hasn't got a basic knife tool that doesn't add a ton of unwanted irrelevant vertices whenever you use it ! And a surprising number of its coolest modelling features are 3rd party scripts and add-on shelf tools ! AND your models look like cr@p in there all the time you are working on them ! I could go on, but don't want to derail the thread with a load of largely subjective gripes about every other thing out there !

 

So it's loads of little reasons really - Cinema is a very visually pleasing place to work, especially recently, the community are great, the cafe is great, the tools keep improving, and I am most comfortable and at home working in its environment, which I still like more than anyone else's.

 

CBR

 

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Have been using C4D for years without any plugin and still managing to model everything, like Jay I rarely stumble on something I cannot do. Actually I don't remember when was the last that happened. ☺️

I tried all other softwares, but always coming back to C4D. Object Manager is something I cannot replace with any other 3D package.

U Render Quality Assurance Specialist

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56 minutes ago, bezo said:

If software make just 1 dollar  over price what you´ve paid for this software, you´re profitable.

If I do commercially and have income from this work, simply I´ll pay full commercial price. Done.

 

If you make 100k for a year (or 50k or 10k, it´s doesn´t matter), why you want better price for software against user with commercial licence?

Your calculation seems a bit weird... at 10K per year, I'd be below the poverty line and would be hard pressed to even pay rent, food, and health insurance, not to mention a car, an internet connection, and a TV set. I would definitely not be able to afford a computer, not to mention expensive software.

 

It absolutely does matter how much you earn, and there are probably more than enough 3D designers who just scrape by. I can't even understand what you mean with "one dollar over price" - if all of your income except for one lousy dollar goes to the software manufacturers, you are their willing slave, nothing more.

 

In addition, you don't have just one software, you have several, and each and every one of them is trying to squeeze the living daylights out of your purse. All the while you are competing against workers in India, Vietnam, Brazil (and I'm not even going to ask how many of your competition is bothering with licensed software).

 

Of course you need to look for the cheapest alternative. Capitalism forces you to.

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1 hour ago, Igor said:

Have been using C4D for years without any plugin and still managing to model everything, like Jay I rarely stumble on something I cannot do. Actually I don't remember when was the last that happened. ☺️

I tried all other softwares, but always coming back to C4D. Object Manager is something I cannot replace with any other 3D package.

100% agree...and that extends to every manager in C4D. They all just make sense. The managers and C4D's stability keeps me using the program.  I did try modo 401 and while the modeling tools were outstanding I just could not get my head wrapped around their object manager (every mesh in the scene was under one item called "mesh" in the object tree -- why?).  Likewise, while Blender has made some improvements, it still does things that don't make sense (eg. parametric objects only stay parametric with first activation -- why?).  And while Blender now has an OM, you can't drag and drop materials onto items in the OM.  I used to take the entire tag architecture of C4D for granted because it just made so much sense.  I mean, all these programs are written in C++ which is an object-oriented architecture so a tag architecture should seem like a logical way to go. But it is not.

 

A good test for me with any new software is to see how far I can get using the demo without the benefit of any documentation or training. If you can use it straight out of the box, then you know you will have a pleasurable user experience.  I got further with C4D than with any other program.  That same experience with Blender was a little "clunky".

 

So, if I may quote Cerbera), Blender just doesn't feel like home.  But that does not mean it could never become home.  To continue with that analogy, everyone hates to move but when things get too expensive living where you are then you have to move. I would hate to move to Blender, but that is up to MAXON in their pricing decisions on what the hobbyist user means to them.  

 

My ideal world?  Blender focus on improving their object and texture managers (drag and drop capability, ctrl-copy, etc) and brings them up to C4D standards and Insydium (already in the Blender camp with Cycles) ports X-Particles to Blender.  That would get me to move.

 

Dave

 

 

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5 hours ago, bezo said:

From all of this kind of discussions I simply don´t understand why "freelancers" with income higher than software package price cry about prices...

If software make just 1 dollar  over price what you´ve paid for this software, you´re profitable.

If I do commercially and have income from this work, simply I´ll pay full commercial price. Done.

 

If you make 100k for a year (or 50k or 10k, it´s doesn´t matter), why you want better price for software against user with commercial licence?

 

Different story are hobby/enthusiasts users, especially with zero income. They´re pure "sponsors" of software developers.

With current prices this group will gradually (but for sure) disappear...

 

 

There are no problems on paying for software when your income comes from it.
But this is mostly true to a one-time payment kind of software.

Like it was with Zbrush for instance, I paid around 700 USD once, and every update they had ever since (and long before I had purchased) was completely for free. I own the software and Pixologic continues to support and give full attention to its users.
It was a bit of a chunk of money to pay at once, specially coming from a Brazilian pocket.. but knowing this was an investment, it puts me at ease, knowing that I can continue to produce work with it during low seasons.

This is different for subscription, where you are held hostage to a continuous payment, hoping that your life situation and job market doesnt change. 
This year, I had to use my credit card to pay for C4D's subscription for instance, due to several delay payments and no projects at all at the beginning of this year. And it was a bit desperate, knowing that the price is so high, for something that I know I dont really own.
So yeah, paying a lot for a rental price, as a indie freelancer, I think it is okay to "cry", as you put it. 

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Interesting topic and replies.  Maya Indie price offer is very good and for those who are located in the right country its worth it for sure. Im  Into purely character based work, no Mograph so how come I got C4D?   Maya was my first port of interest before getting C4D but it was their greedy tactics and steep pricing that put me off right before the last month by trying to lock me into a maintenance subscription where if stopped for any reason that perpetual licence would no longer be upgradable. Then I started looking at MAXON before looking at C4D.  Not long after I got C4D,  Autodesk tried to get their perpetual customers to give in their perpetual licences in order to have it rented back to them at a discount, I dodged the bullet and felt happy to work with C4D even with its limitations.

 

Many do use these apps as pure money making tools which is fair enough, but there are some that also see these tools as part of their hobbies or artistic output.  I fit into both of these which is why I respect the likes of Pixologic, they make a lot of money but they are interested in the art and their customers, they are artists, good business ethics.   I had to use Maya 2 years ago and I found it was much better than I had thought it would be.  C4D weakest link IMHO is in its modelling and UVs, although its capable its quite some way behind the likes of MODO in this area, shame MODO feels so clinical and lacks C4D user friendliness. 

 

Dan

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3 minutes ago, Rectro said:

Interesting topic and replies.  Maya Indie price offer is very good and for those who are located in the right country its worth it for sure. Im  Into purely character based work, no Mograph so how come I got C4D?   Maya was my first port of interest before getting C4D but it was their greedy tactics and steep pricing that put me off right before the last month by trying to lock me into a maintenance subscription where if stopped for any reason that perpetual licence would no longer be upgradable. Then I started looking at MAXON before looking at C4D.  Not long after I got C4D,  Autodesk tried to get their perpetual customers to give in their perpetual licences in order to have it rented back to them at a discount, I dodged the bullet and felt happy to work with C4D even with its limitations.

 

Many do use these apps as pure money making tools which is fair enough, but there are some that also see these tools as part of their hobbies or artistic output.  I fit into both of these which is why I respect the likes of Pixologic, they make a lot of money but they are interested in the art and their customers, they are artists, good business ethics.   I had to use Maya 2 years ago and I found it was much better than I had thought it would be.  C4D weakest link IMHO is in its modelling and UVs, although its capable its quite some way behind the likes of MODO in this area, shame MODO feels so clinical and lacks C4D user friendliness. 

 

Dan

I absolute love your input on this Dan. 
Have you played a lot with character animation inside Maya? Or any other software? 
I'm very curious about that. 🙂

My problem with C4D at the moment, well, aside from the subcription price, it is the lack of nice real time visualization on NPR work. I love doing things with sketch and toon, but at some point, the instant viewport render region just gets extremely slow to preview anything...  

But yeah, I gotta admit, C4D feels like home. 
I dont need to search extensively through several different forums when I see something that Im not 100% sure how to achieve.
The object manager and the way you can organize your scenes, just welcomes you.

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1 hour ago, FLima said:

I absolute love your input on this Dan. 
Have you played a lot with character animation inside Maya? Or any other software? 
I'm very curious about that. 🙂

My problem with C4D at the moment, well, aside from the subscription price, it is the lack of nice real time visualization on NPR work. I love doing things with sketch and toon, but at some point, the instant viewport render region just gets extremely slow to preview anything...  

But yeah, I gotta admit, C4D feels like home. 
I don't need to search extensively through several different forums when I see something that Im not 100% sure how to achieve.
The object manager and the way you can organize your scenes, just welcomes you.

Hi.

 

Iv touched some areas of rigging, setting up constraints. correctional morphs.  Feedback in viewport is fast and looks so nice.  I had to mainly deal with modelling tasks.  My daughter was doing a Graphic Game Media course at college.  She naturally came to me for help.  They wanted proof she did the work in Maya but also allowed some work to be done in C4D.  My daughter didnt know Maya an neither did I and the tutors didn't either lol.  I started doing some training for Maya, just basics and using my intuition crossing between C4D and  Maya.  After a sort period about 30 hours I was getting things done and felt regret that I could not own it outright as I liked it, so didn't pursue learning it further because it was too expensive.  My speciality is in Digital Sculpting and anatomy study which opened up to being a generalist, but had always wanted to understand rigging. 

 

Going way back my first rigging experience on a basic level was in XSI, then I took a course rigging in Max, this was enough to let me know rigging as a speciality was not for me, it gets way too technical, much deeper when your having to write scripts and rig hard surface objects e.c.t.  Not giving up on rigging I then as a beta tester for DAZ3D for all their software range delved into rigging with DAZ3D specialist tools while working with a DAZ3D colleague on a project.  I later  moved on to Modo where again I touched on rigging characters.  I got to rig some cartoon based characters in MODO where some past aspects of Max finally clicked with me.  I hit some limitations in MODO and combined it with  Messiah Studio, learnt some cool stuff in there, done some rigging training in there too.  Next was C4D where it sat bang in the middle between Maya and Modo. 

 

Iv seen some exceptional character rigging done in C4D, and some great modelling, so while Maya, Modo may be better in some areas a lot can be said for being proficient in where your comfortable working in.  If your working in software that's better but you feel your fighting against it you will not work fast, this is how MODO left me feeling often.

 

This may be where Jay is coming from, he knows C4D well enough and feels comfortable enough to be very efficient with it and get the job done.

 

Dan

 

 

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  • Silver Contributor

Interesting discussion.

I've been a pro freelancer for a long time. One of the main things that is rarely considered enough in these threads is the value of your time.

 

Why am I still using C4D? Do I think it's the greatest? No, I don't - but it provides adequate tools to do what I need.  Are there better tools out there for me? Quite possibly: Maya, Max, Houdini, Modo, Blender... What about renderers? I use Redshift. Maybe Octane would be better, or Arnold, or Corona or...

 

The issue is time. There is an opportunity cost for that. I can earn, or I can explore. Every hour I spend learning a new software is an hour of income I loose. That is where the big cost is to me. I'd love to be able to spend time exploring alternatives, but it gets expensive in time, and therefore cost, very quickly. Learning a new package or developing skills in the current one is a tricky balance to strike.

 

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