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Maxon Announces Cinema 4D R23 | Overview | Discussion


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51 minutes ago, Adrien said:

With all due respect Dave, I think you (=MAXON) tend to complicate things too: just have a proper section on the site telling visitors how they can upgrade to R23 when they own a perpetual license, show the price and add online purchases. That’s way faster and easier than having to call a reseller or checking a website where the information is completely buried, or worse, having to post a message on this forum.


Besides, most people did not  understand the jump from R21 to R23. Some of my friends who own a perpetual license thought they had missed a version. R22 would have been just fine for everybody don’t you think? 

cheers 

Adrien 

There is also some NEW information in Mr. McGavran's post that I wish I had known about last year prior to upgrading from R20 to R21 at the MSA price for the last time...and that is the ability to do a perpetual license upgrade from R20 to R23 for the same cast as upgrading from R21 to R23.  Had I known that, I would have waited.

 

When was that plan publicly announced?  Probably never (AFAIK).  Here is why:

 

I would imagine that revenue from existing customers is greater than revenue from new customers. Subscription prices are fixed for current subscribers and I come to that conclusion as I  recall some legal arguments about why they can't make changes to contract pricing in various countries.  I can't remember the details, but that was the sense I got when they explained why MAXON cannot have true monthly billing versus annual billing on subscriptions as it was due to leases, contracts, etc.   Is it a real concern or a bid to hide behind legal mumbo-jumbo?  Not sure.   But one thing is certain: As with any company, MAXON needs some room to maneuver to capture revenue should sales be below expectations and they may only be able to do that with perpetual licenses.    So I think if they commit to announce pricing  in "EVERY MARKET" on perpetual upgrades they loose some of that wiggle room.  They don't want to communicate to everyone that existing customers in the US are getting better deals than the UK.  So they play their cards close to the vest.  They also want to give away deals when they don't have to.   I can't blame them...that is smart business.

 

This could explain the new information (at least to me) to upgrade from R20 to R23 for the same price as upgrading from R21.  That was a deal you would only get if you called MAXON as  a license R20 holder and  that deal was probably not in play when I renewed my R20 to R21 MSA for the last time.

 

That is why for those who are perpetual license holders and want to stay perpetual license holders, I advocate waiting.  Something you can afford may be in your future.  I hope so because I just can't be shelling out $1000 every year for an upgrade.  

 

For those who are subscription license holders, you may be thinking "why is this an issue".  Well...let me describe the worst case scenario.  You can afford $720/year so you are comfortable.  But what if MAXON started to increase subscription costs to a $1000/year (ala Autodesk)?  That may be beyond your budget....but if you opt out, you now have nothing.    I am not saying that will happen but that is something you need to think about when you consider the plight of the perpetual license hobbyist.

 

Dave

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Only commenting on the things I used. Scene nodes look promising (haven't tested), but more importantly again show a strong vision for the future. I also comment on the general outlook, MyMa

I had a surface level look at scene nodes but then digged into the past material nodes again and want to share some thoughts,  not so much about the functionality but the implications of the prio

Grateful I jumped off...and stuck w/plan for blender/R20. Will have soon saved nearly $2,000. Never had to fuss with broken plugins, bugs, hassles and modest upgrades. Already had Octane and Rizom UV.

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I think they should just be done with it already and get rid of the the perpetual licences....it's obvious what's happening now.

It is £1918.80 to upgrade a perpetual licence of R20 Studio purchased for £3200 in March 2019 here in the UK. I feel really poorly treated as a perpetual licence holder. I love C4D and have no intention of leaving C4D but this is really disappointing behaviour. I finally took the plunge at exactly the wrong time and now I can't join in the post R20 party without paying a heavy cost when compared to subscription holders.

Last year I enquired about an upgrade to R21 and was quoted £958.80. At this time there is no point continuing with perpetual licenses or buying new perpetual licences because at any point MAXON could decide to devalue your purchase and make your upgrade path unviable.

I think C4D is great and love using it for my projects. I am completely baffled though, how they could leave a customer in the cold like this. Thankfully I do not need any post R20 features at this point in time. When I feel like I've had my £3200 worth out of my R20 licence I guess I will just have to stop using it and buy a subscription...

There is no trust to continue funding the perpetual model now. 

 

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Dave,

One more thing. I don't mind trading in for a subscription licence. I think the subscription is very reasonably priced. All I really want is a sensible way out of my perpetual licence.

Last year I was was offered to trade my less than a year old perpetual seat for a 1 year subscription at a not so great discount:

I complained via private email to UK Sales until I was blue in the face but nothing could be done apparently as it came from above (hence my more public display of disatisfaction)

In the end I gave up and resided my self to sitting out with my R20 seat until I got my value out of it or projects forced me to upgrade.

 

quote2.jpg

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2 hours ago, jonmoore said:

Ok, so I've had less than 24 hrs with the R23 demo but I can categorically say that Scene Nodes in r23 is nothing like Softimage ICE (and I say that as someone who still uses ICE on a regular basis today, many years after XSI's EOL). Scene Nodes actually feels closer to Fabric Engine than any of the other nodes based systems I've used over the years (I've used virtually all of them at some point in time!).

 

Less than 24 hrs is nowhere near enough time with Scene Nodes to make any kind of judgement call on it's capabilities but I will say that things feel closer to an alpha build than a 'technology preview' public beta build. And that's no bad thing in and of itself, as I think that MAXON need to expose Scene Nodes to the widest spread of C4D artists to help them make sense of where to go next with the system. Once I got over the shock of Scene Nodes not having a representation in the Object Manager or any of the other legacy UX elements for that matter, I've found exploring the system to be relatively straight forward once you get a handle on MAXON's tendency to rename generalised CG nomenclature to 'C4D speak'.

 

A lot has been made of the fact the Scene Nodes are the future of C4D as they don't use any of the legacy code base, and it really impresses when shifting large numbers of clones around the GL viewport; but I think it's fair to say, that in real world terms, Scene Nodes in their current state, are nearly as far removed from daily C4D use case scenarios as Bifrost Graph is to daily Maya workflows (SOuP is a far better example of an integrated Maya procedural nodes system).

 

One thing that I'm finding hard to adjust to, is the apparent lack of visual debug tools. Most procedural systems allow the artist to visualise geometry/point cloud attributes in the GL viewport. At it's most basic, this facilitates the display of component attributes such as point/polygon/curve attributes, but with the vast scope of possible value modulations in a procedural setup, the artist also values the ability to query values at any point of the graph. In the example below, I'm querying the values of particles after a re-scale operation. The large properties box labelled Show Values is the interface the artist uses to set up the 'attribute display' (this is achieved by right clicking on the data stream at point of need - in this example, you'll notice a green V between the Rescale and Gradient nodes.

 

On a more positive note, I was glad to see that the Nodes UI has a far clearer visual UX, compared to previous iterations. It's the only nodal interface that compares to ICE in terms of clarity and efficiency (Bifrost is horrendously wasteful of interface real-estate). But one small trick has been missed (this is a minor UX example, but it seemed apt to raise it here). You'll notice that there's a Scalar (float) node feeding into the Turbulence node in the screen shot below. Where this differ's in terms of UI/UX to R23's nodal interface, is that the value of the floating point value is displayed on the node itself. This means that the artist can see the value simply by scanning the graph (there's no need to open Turbulence property editor to see the value). This can be really effective in communicating key values in a graph for those occasions when an artist will be be returning to a scene setup after an extended period of time.

 

Anyway, I'll stop here as I'm keen to carry on playing with R23. I have a feeling I'll be shifting a lot of my daily workload till after the weekend as there's a huge amount to grok, but I'm enjoying the journey so far. 🙂

EYuf2O

 

Nice read, hope you get more time with nodes to discover some other cool stuff. Rest assured that we are fully aware what is missing in Nodes (and with them) and am glad that our ideas correspond to real world usability findings from experienced node user from other apps. Nodes are young but rest assured we are on them with intentions to match and exceed similar systems.

Btw, you can in fact type this into name of value node.

 

{{in}}

 

Then the node will display the value from incoming input to it. Console is also your friend until proper debugging and vis tools are made

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34 minutes ago, Hrvoje said:

 

Btw, you can in fact type this into name of value node.

 

{{in}}

 

Then the node will display the value from incoming input to it. Console is also your friend until proper debugging and vis tools are made

 

Good to know.

 

I have been attempting to get useful data fed to the console but I'm probably doing it wrong. I thought there might be some drag/drop shenanigans like there is with the Python console but no worries, I'm just exploring right now.

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4 hours ago, jonmoore said:

Ok, so I've had less than 24 hrs with the R23 demo but I can categorically say that Scene Nodes in r23 is nothing like Softimage ICE (and I say that as someone who still uses ICE on a regular basis today, many years after XSI's EOL). Scene Nodes actually feels closer to Fabric Engine than any of the other nodes based systems I've used over the years...

 

Jon,
For those of us, myself included, with nothing like your depth of nodes experience, could you expand on your comment above - ICE v Fabric Engine. I've no experience of either. Is this a positive or a negative? How would you summarise the difference?

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