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GaryAbrehart

Modo Vs C4D Modelling

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I am a little confused about this retopo stuff. I thought that you made a basic mesh in your 3D package and then took it into ZBrush to add detail saved that as a normal or displacement map and applied it to your original low poly mesh. In this instance has PointPusher just gone straight into ZBrush and modelled a high quality head and then needs to get it back into Maya for rigging/animation?

 

Please excuse my ignorance I have never touched ZBrush and only dabbled with the sculpting tools in C4D. My only knowledge is what I have read in magazines and I don't usually read ZBrush stuff since I don't use it. Most of my work is old fashioned polygons…

Yeah as James said above, there are two basic approaches really, one is to start with a base mesh and add detail with sculpting, the other is to just start in the sculpting app and not worry about topology at all to begin with (Dynamesh in ZBrush is a big help for that as you just keep sculpting and remesh when you need to). Once you have the forms of the model looking right then you create animation-ready topology with the sculpt as a guide. The advantage of the 2nd method is you are concentrating on one thing at a time, how the model looks first, then the topology, instead of trying to balance those.

 

This video gives a great example of the power of dynamesh, you literally treat the model like a peice of clay, chopping it up when needed and automatically remeshing it when the polys get stretched and you need more detail.

I hate the term 'game changer'.. but it's kind of appropriate in this case :)

 

 

Cheers,

Brian

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  • Thanks for all the replies guess I don't need Modo but perhaps ZBrush.

    And Brian thanks for those Vimeo links that chap is quite inspiring makes me wanna draw again which also makes me realise I definitely need a better Wacom...

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    Right at the beginning of this thread you gave a list of what most of your modelling consists of.

     

    Unless you've stopped wanting to do that kind of modelling and just want to go down the character sculpt/retopo path I can't really see how ZBrush applies to your main workflow. Don't get me wrong, ZBrush is great and I wouldn't like to be without it, but it's not the most appropriate tool for all modelling tasks - not by a long way. Yes, I know some people do 'hard surface' modelling in ZB - but it's not easier (to execute well) than in Poly/SDS and lacks the level of control you'd have in a good traditional modeller. Sculpting a complex hard surface model and then retopoing it will take far longer and almost certainly look worse than doing it 'properly' from the start. In which case, what's the point?

     

    Mark

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    I must admit I'm with Mark here. Whilst Zbrush is a great tool and one that definitely complements the C4D toolset fantastically well; if you don't often have a need for a sculpting toolset (in particular for character work) it may be overkill. I still believe that Modo has some unique features that are worth exploring and it has one of the fastest native (great quality too) rendering engines available. I'm particularly excited at the prospect of the Modo/Nuke workflow now that Modo is part of the Foundry family. Download the demo go through the wealth of free tutorials that are available and see if it clicks for your personal needs.

     

    In saying all that, there's a lot to be said for learning one single application inside out (C4D) rather than constantly dipping into a wider toolset. Considering the complexity of modern day software suites you'll probably be able to achieve more by leveraging a single application to it's full capabilities.

     

    jm

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    If most of your work is "hard-surface modeling", you might be better off considering adding a package like Bonzai/FormZ, Rhino, or even MoI as such pkgs in combination with poly modelers enable certain workflows that poly modelers alone have difficulty reproducing.  Precise curved surfaces, CSG construction, and generally better tool precision overall nicely augment C4D's (or modo's) toolset.  

     

    Trading C4D for modo, or vice versa, doesn't really change the available tools / workflows by _that_ much (IMO).  In contrast, adding a NURBs/CSG modeling pkg alongside either poly modeler broadens available tools and workflows substantially.

     

    modo has better NURBs/CAD import/export plugins available overall (at additional cost), but I hear the rhinoIO plugin brings quite decent import/export to C4D as well.  I've not yet run into a situation where the built-in import/export options of my pkgs weren't adequate to my needs, but can easily picture how more complex tasks would merit investment in more capable IO plugins.

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    If most of your work is "hard-surface modeling", you might be better off considering adding a package like Bonzai/FormZ, Rhino, or even MoI as such pkgs in combination with poly modelers enable certain workflows that poly modelers alone have difficulty reproducing.  Precise curved surfaces, CSG construction, and generally better tool precision overall nicely augment C4D's (or modo's) toolset.

     

    I'm in the middle of choosing a 'hard surface' modeler at the moment. At the office (IDEO), many people have been recommending Rhino (with a few suggesting MOL because it's so simple to use), however I'm a Mac man so my choice seems to be limited to FormZ/Bonzai (I'm aware there's a mac beta available for Rhino but I've been recommended to steer clear). The last time I looked at an AutoDesSys product it didn't click with me (this was admittedly a long time ago) but I've read great things about the latest version of FormZ with reference to it's combination of it's ease of use/easy access to deeper power user stuff (based on learnings from developing Bonzai). I'm going to download the latest demo of FormZ but wondered if you had any specific thoughts. I'd ideally like to go with an OS X native solution but run Parallels so can go with Rhino (or Mol) if they're the better long term solution.

     

    Thanks in advance.

     

    jm

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    MoI has well-regarded meshing capability, and it is a relatively inexpensive and uncomplicated modeller.

     

    There are also Mac-based solutions from companies like Ashlar-Vellum (Cobalt, Xenon, Argon) and PunchCAD (ViaCad and Shark). As with any software, you need to be able to trial an application to see if it fits your workflow.

     

    Mark

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    Cheers all. Spent the last couple of hours with the FormZ demo and am mightily impressed so far. They've taken the best of the Sketchup user experience and applied it to a serious modelling application (which makes it incredibly intuitive to use). The proof of the pudding will come with the quality of the exports to take downstream into other applications but loving what I'm seeing so far.

     

    I was aware of the Mac version of Mol but much like Rhino I've been advised against it (not sure on the specific reasoning but the advise came from people I trust). The last time I looked at Mol was a few years back and I was really impressed with the quality of it's meshing on export (even models created with a multitude of Boolean operations worked reasonably well) so it's definitely still part of my consideration set. However serious CAD applications such as those from Ashlar-Vellum aren't really what I'm looking for. 

     

    Back to FormZ the other decision I'll need to consider will be whether I require all the grunt that FormZ supplies or whether Bonzai will cover most of the bases I require. The differences between the two are very subtle and if judged purely on the modeling feature set the gap between the two is reduced even further.

     

    Thanks again.

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    Just checked out the Moi 2.5 demo and it isn't Mac native but runs under Wine. Not sure if this is the case with the forthcoming version 3 (still in beta and only available to existing license holders) so this is looking like a no go too. Also considering Moi and Bonzai are at very similar price points there's a huge gulf between the feature sets. Exporting from FormZ/Bonzai is looking good so far and from what I can see OBJ seems the best format. Having said that, when exporting heavy duty organic nurbs stuff you sometimes have to clean up the resulting Mesh a little with a few tactical 'melt' commands (to be expected I suppose). Probably user error though as I haven't fully explored the IO options.  :)

     

    Apologies for hijacking the original thread but the conversations seems 'on point' for the original question.

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    Spent at least 20 hours testing my three main options FormZ, Moi and Rhino (for Mac) since saturday. My first impressions are:

     

    Rhino - Overkill for my specific needs (although I do have previous experience with Rhino so I can find my way round quite rapidly). I might have considered it more if the OS X version had the same unified, tabbed interface as the Windows version. Intuitive user experience is everything for me (one of the reasons I love C4D so much) and Rhino for Mac is like working with a CAD program from 15 years ago. On the other hand it is completely free whilst it's still in beta so if already understand curved surface modeling techniques, Rhino provides a great complement to C4D/Modo.

     

    FormZ - Whilst FormZ 7 is a definite improvement over previous versions it's overall user experience is still very clunky with an over-reliance on managing a multitude of palettes. You can get good quality geometry out of it when you use the interactive 'poly mesh' tool for converting your smooth nurbs surfaces (I tweaked the expert options for 5º normal tolerance and quad/ngon export only options) but the OBJ export has issues and you need to use LWO. The LWO option exports usable UV's too but they may need tweaking depending on your texture tiles. The Nurbs toolset in FormZ is great and once you get used to it's idiosyncratic ways it has lots to offer (especially with it's great snapping features) but the Nurbs stuff is only 15-20% of the total feature set and everything else it offers can be done natively in C4D in a far more intuitive manner so you're potentially wasting a lot of cash on stuff you don't need. Bonzai of course is half the price but it's missing some of those killer Nurbs features.

     

    Moi - So glad I spent a bit more time with Moi. The best thing it has going for it IMHO is the quality and instant usability (UV's are near perfect for most stuff) of the meshes it exports - leagues ahead of both Rhino & FormZ. On the downside whilst it's very easy to get into, a lot of it's deeper features aren't very intuitive and the documentation is pretty sketchy (searching the forum usually can often be the better route to answers). I was initially put of by the fact that the mac version runs in a Wine shell but in practise this works very smoothly with a far lesser overhead than running Parallels.

     

    At the moment I'm leaning towards Moi purely on the basis of it's superior meshing capabilities. I'm not finding it the most intuitive program to work with but I'm sure that it will click with me at some point (although I love it's tablet centric interface, ideal for working with a Cintiq). It also offers the best value for money as your only paying for a nurbs modeller to compliment C4D/Modo rather than yet another 'suite' product where 80% of your money is being spent on duplicated features. If AutoDesSys release a pure nurbs modeller (with an improved unified UI) it may be the kind of product I'm looking for, at the moment Moi seems to be the best option all things considered.

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    I think MOI is a superb program and very easy to pick up. Great as a supplement to C4D plus reasonably priced. Check out my couple of tutorials on it, here at the cafe in the tutorials section.

     

    3DKiwi

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