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WHAT? no R17 thread yet?


bobc4d

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I agree with you guys about Team Render must be solved. Even if it means include free command line renderer nodes & they buy + re-brand a 3rd party manager for the next release.

 

I disagree about the Reflectance though. Its a huge step forward for Cinema & a really powerful & flexible implementation. In some ways (only some) its ahead of both VRay & Octane.

No way it will ever support multi-editing - it has a variable number of layers of variable type.

Most other programs don't have multi-edit to anywhere near the extent of cinema (in max & maya it's good for about half or less of the object properties). Very few other render engines have it.

 

BUT I think the right solution for R17 would be to break the material into a 'Cinema 4D basic' material- which would be used whenever a legacy reflection/ spec is detected or you create a new 'Cinema 4D basic' material. Which could be mulit-edited.

AND a 'Cinema 4D Advanced' material which would be used in all other circumstances. And can't be multi-edited.

This would also allow them to spread out/ re-arrange all the other stuff they've put under the new reflectance model.

 

For those who really (really?) believe reflectance is that hard to use, I recommend the cineversity series, it will clear up any doubts, I personaly don't think its any harder than VRay materials (which are also qufairly easy, I think).

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You know, I loved the idea of an all-in-one tool, but I never use it! I still feel much quicker with what I already know with the existing tools.

I'd like to hear from people where and when they use it, I haven't had a retopo job for a while so maybe that'll be it's time to shine : )

 

cheers

brasc

 

I suspect you aren't using it because you are habituated to well worn comfortable routines. I find myself often resorting to inferior workflows sometimes just because of habit. (but maybe that's just me?)

 

The Ppen tool is pretty darn awesome, IMO. I've enjoyed it some...look forward to making it second nature.

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BUT I think the right solution for R17 would be to break the material into a 'Cinema 4D basic' material- which would be used whenever a legacy reflection/ spec is detected or you create a new 'Cinema 4D basic' material. Which could be mulit-edited.

AND a 'Cinema 4D Advanced' material which would be used in all other circumstances. And can't be multi-edited.

This would also allow them to spread out/ re-arrange all the other stuff they've put under the new reflectance model.

 

Yes, I suggested this sometime back. One layer type would be legacy and another layer type for new model. And that's one of my problems with Reflectance...the interface in trying to accommodate the legacy approach is cumbersome and awkward. And everytime you want a new material you need to delete the default layer.

 

Though I agree that Reflectance can do some super cool stuff...it is slow. And when c4d's rendering wasn't fast in the first place...this becomes an issue. Certainly if most of your work is animation as it is for me.

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suspect you aren't using it because you are habituated to well worn comfortable routines. I find myself often resorting to inferior workflows sometimes just because of habit. (but maybe that's just me?)

 

I'd say for it'd be an 'inferior workflow' if it was slower than using the polypen, but it's really not, it's about accuracy and the poly pen doesn't really give you that. But I see your point, I have plenty of ways I go about modelling and I'm sure a couple could be sped up using different methods but I've never really used a tool that hasn't grabbed me in the 6 months I've had it. I'd need to benchmark myself modelling something then try something similar with the pen to see where it helps.

 

cheers

brasc

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Yes, I suggested this sometime back. One layer type would be legacy and another layer type for new model. And that's one of my problems with Reflectance...the interface in trying to accommodate the legacy approach is cumbersome and awkward. And everytime you want a new material you need to delete the default layer.

 

Though I agree that Reflectance can do some super cool stuff...it is slow. And when c4d's rendering wasn't fast in the first place...this becomes an issue. Certainly if most of your work is animation as it is for me.

 

Well, if you say Reflectance is slow, I'd say that depends.

Of course if you stack them up, fill them with detail & blend them with maps, it gets slow but that's kind of true for any engine.

If you use a single Beckmann reflection with a GGX spec for just 1 example, render times are very comparable to R15 but now you can apply maps to roughness, nicer spec etc

 

If you're talking about time to a grain-free render & you're prepared to be very disiplined with render effects Standard Render will beat anything out there.

It can make a clean render with no grain quicker than Physical, Octane or VRay can dream of.

But you do have to be very sparing of effects, like a little bit of blurred reflection, maybe some optimised SSS on 1 object, forget about GI... you get the idea.

But if you need to deliver 1000s of frame at about 1 min a frame, standard will get you there if you're very gentle with it.

The nice thing is all the advances in GI, SSS, Reflectance also work in Standard render, even though it gets inefficient if you use to many or too much.

 

Anwyay, I feel like what we discussed, a split netween standard & advanced material should be possible without changing the underlying tech too much, so I hope its a real possiblility for R17.

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yes, for the love of god, either make a new "advanced material" or just made the 2 channels selectable in the material properties. So we can pick either "reflectance" or "reflection" and it keeps working like it did in previous versions. 

 

I really don't mind all the new features, but the fact that i can't multi edit, just make the whole release unusable for me. 

 

I've brought this up multiple times will go over it again. 

you buy a model of a car off turbo squid, you import it. EVERY material has an ugly plastic specular. ( the default one). Just simply removing this would take an hour if you have 100+ various materials. in r15, it takes all of 3 seconds. 

 

edit: also mix check box on material tag doesnt work for reflectance... ( just please bring back the original reflection channel, shouldn't be that hard, and would make everyone happy). 

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Graham is a very badass FX artist from Realtime. Check out his vimeo page if you are interested in FX. Some impressive stuff.

 

Now more than ever, the C4D Houdini combo looks more interesting. It is said that Rigging in Houdini is very powerful and that now Animation has received some important attention (probably because of Softimage demise).

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Usualy it's a thread who brings a lot more passions. I hope I'm wrong but I have the feeling people become embittered and resigned year after year as they think, at the end of the day, MAXON will follow it's own roadmap without listen their customers (or just a little bit).

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Usualy it's a thread who brings a lot more passions. I hope I'm wrong but I have the feeling people become embittered and resigned year after year as they think, at the end of the day, MAXON will follow it's own roadmap without listen their customers (or just a little bit).

 

i really don't mind them following their own road map, i just wish they didn't break stuff on the way... its really dissapointing, going from a software which was rock solid and everything worked, albeit with some work arounds, now its just like someone is rampaging through the development plan trying to leave their own mark on it or something... 

 

I really understand how people felt about net render now. For me it wasn't an issue because i rarely used it. But this reflectance things is a nightmare... It's just broken and there is no way back. I  would just switch to thea, but got clients still using standard c4d renderer. And some features aren't supported.. Thankfully none of my clients have actually adopted R16, everyone is just as pissed as i am =) 

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