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arail

so what happens to the cafe when Nigel dumps c4d?

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It's as if Titanic is sinking or more appropriately, the Concorde jetliner is being put to retirement.. and to Nigel, thanks for those eleven Supersonic Years!!:cry:

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thanks so much for this great place of information and entertainment, learning c4d would have been much harder without the cafe. i can understand your decision, and it sounds like the right thing to do for you. 

@ hsrdelic: thank you for the info, it's good to know people ARE listening at MAXON. i hope you don't get into any trouble by sharing those things about the next release. in fact they should thank you, i'm sure your post did calm a lot of people down a bit. i personally don't even need the information which exact feature will be in what release, i just need to know they're listening and working on known issues, so i don't have to make the half hour drive over to MAXON headquarters and yell at them

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Sad to hear you're moving on Nigel.

Thanks so much for all you've brought to the Cinema 4D community over the years.

I stumbled on the cafe just after it opened & I was a rank amateur & I learned so much here over the years.

Good luck in the future, Nigel.

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Only thing here that would satisfy people seem to be is to say out bluntly yes, "feature A and B are coming for R17", "feature D, E and F for R18", but that is simply something that is not allowed to be communicated right now, but could be subject to change in future,I simply don't know or make such decisions. What is interesting is that if you watch various MAXON workshops, presentations, user meetings things are often hinted by product managers themselves so it is not a difficult task to get a good idea of future feature set :)

 

​HSrdelic,

I don't think people want to know exactly what features are coming in future releases but they want feedback from MAXON that long standing and serious issues are being actively worked on.

It's time for MAXON to stop hiding behind the very convenient cover of "we don't discuss future features" because customers who are expected to fork out a heavy price each year for their MSA or upgrades in the hope that long standing issues will be addressed deserve a bit more respect from MAXON.

The bevel tool situation can be applied to many areas of the application now surely there is at least some embarrassment at MAXON HQ at features that are so old and dated?

I can remember seeing the early Mograph tools being demonstrated and on that basis I purchased C4D Studio (When that was the "cheapest" way of buying all the modules) since that point it became very obvious amongst users that there was an issue with C4D's ability to handle multiple objects and I can remember the calls for MAXON to address that issue. Those calls have got louder and louder each subsequent year to the point they must simply be deafening to all concerned at MAXON HQ. How long are we going to have to wait until those calls are headed, maybe as long as it took for the bevel tool to be made useful?

Xpresso is an unbelievably important tool within C4D yet it too has seen no real improvement since the day it was licensed bar a bit of lipstick a few releases ago. Compare Xpresso/TP with the competition's visual programming/rigging tools and they do not fare favourably at all in scope nor performance. Thank heavens for XParticles which has shown  even within the dated object handling engine that user can animate large particle and objects by virtue of a multithreaded engine, I applaud those developers because without them C4D would look very dated. Demands from clients over the years has been for increased object numbers and particle counts and has not stayed the same which MAXON clearly believe.

Bodypaint.... I can't write any more about that that others haven't written for years, it's a bloody disgrace that an area of a modern expensive DCC has been allowed to atrophy so bad that it is a running joke within and outside the community. Yes it still works but it is horrible to use.

I don't want to run through ever gripe I have because it's not about me but the next big issue I see regularly written about is the feature upgrade lottery, it appears completely random. Who was it that decided that C4D required a Motion Tracker before Bodypaint was brought up to date? Who was it that decided to purchase an unpopular plugin and incorporate that into C4D before bringing a feature that nearly every single C4D user needs to use most of the time? The Motion Tracker isn't even of professional standard as there is no way to measure and match lens distortion.

There are other issues with the upgrade philosophy, such as features being worked on then nothing for years and sometimes never again will a feature see development. An application that really became synonymous with Mograph has seen very little development in that area since it was rolled out. I used to think this was because MAXON must be working on a high performance Xpresso/TP replacement and that would be the answer to many artists' needs, nowadays, I have absolutely no faith that any of the issues above have been acknowledged by MAXON HQ let alone being actively worked on.

Other companies like the behemoth Autodesk and much smaller SideFX do converse with their customers and provide a direction of travel. SideFX have officially said they are actively working on their viewport performance, they have publicly acknowledged their performance compared to their competition and have quelled any fears of their users and stated it's in for the next release. Why won't MAXON do the same?

 

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Once again, I am not MAXON spokesman nor I can speak in company name on formal official level. I simply don't make any decisions and can't change company policy since it is not up to me. I have already said what I could and I simply can't add anything to it without breaking NDA. I tried to pass the fact that you are being listened too, with putting my personal and professional credibility behind it but nobody seems to care even with me walking the thin line around NDA. So, even with all my reputation, being freelancer and training vendor for so long, being cafe member and admin for years and even working for MAXON lately I was unable to directly transfer that information to a point where it could get accepted. By using common sense, every issue mentioned in this topic can be streamlined to completely insane conclusion and that is that:

MAXON doesn't care, doesn't hear, doesn't act and everyone there is delusional and stupid and is looking forward to lose his job. And MAXON hires more and more talented and capable people for fun only.

Do you really think that is true? :)

Well, simply because there is no direct official response from MAXON it must be, right?

Cheers

 

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All the best Nigel & huge thanks for all your hard work. In fact, words alone cannot describe the appreciation I & many others have for your efforts over the years.

Every time I hit the ' C ' key, I still hear your NZ accent ' make editable ' :lol:

 

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Once again, I am not MAXON spokesman nor I can speak in company name on formal official level. I simply don't make any decisions and can't change company policy since it is not up to me. I have already said what I could and I simply can't add anything to it without breaking NDA. I tried to pass the fact that you are being listened too, with putting my personal and professional credibility behind it but nobody seems to care even with me walking the thin line around NDA. So, even with all my reputation, being freelancer and training vendor for so long, being cafe member and admin for years and even working for MAXON lately I was unable to directly transfer that information to a point where it could get accepted. By using common sense, every issue mentioned in this topic can be streamlined to completely insane conclusion and that is that:

MAXON doesn't care, doesn't hear, doesn't act and everyone there is delusional and stupid and is looking forward to lose his job. And MAXON hires more and more talented and capable people for fun only.

Do you really think that is true? :)

Well, simply because there is no direct official response from MAXON it must be, right?

Cheers

 

​I know it's a waste of time trying to engage MAXON, I'm not asking you personally to break an NDA in anyway shape or form but you are keen to try and misrepresent a request for more open dialogue and to address long standing issues that many users have commented on over the years. 

If there is no official response from MAXON then, yes, it's clear they do not care enough. I continue to have zero faith that these issues are being actively worked on and will be delivered anytime soon, that is my conclusion.

I did at one stage think the reason for the series of lacklustre upgrades was because the MAXON development team were diverted onto a massive core rewrite that would free up the known bottlenecks but as time goes on I don't believe that is the case. Instead I believe the lacklustre updates are a symptom of MAXON believing they can ship as little as they can get away with.

If R17 arrives with massively improved object handling performance, a high performance replacement for Xpresso, modern UV tools I will take ever single word back and apologise unreservedly.

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Well, for me, a good start would be for MAXON to just fix faulty functions who worked in previous versions.
The camera shader, works as documented and expected in R14.
The camera shader, behaves wrong in R15, so I have to apply a fix every time I use it on projects created in R14. You'd expected an update. And a fix. But no such one. In fact, there was no C4D update from December 2013 and till R16 was released in September 9 months later!!
R 16 came out. The camera shader was broken, again. But now it was broken in a different way, so that I had to apply fixes to both projects created with R14 and with R15!

When R17 arrives, I wonder how the camera shader will behave then!
I don't know what
HSrdelic and the others think about this, but no updates in 9 months, with several confirmed bugs lurking, and the bugs persisting in the next release, now behaving in a different way in September 2014.. and still no fix as of May 2015.. 

The feeling I have, that C4 is like a  "message in a bottle", that kids play with, the feeling is there.. Release a new C4D RX version, put it in a bottle, throw it out in the sea, let the waves take it, and start working on the new version, immediately.

-Ingvar

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All the best Nigel & huge thanks for all your hard work. In fact, words alone cannot describe the appreciation I & many others have for your efforts over the years.

Every time I hit the ' C ' key, I still hear your NZ accent ' make editable ' :lol:

 

​In honor of Nigel, we should extract a couple of his most famous sayings from his tutorials and edit them together into a some mix audio tape or make them ring tones!

"Now how cool is that?"  "In the Zed direction"  "Make editable"...

:smile:

Dave

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​I know it's a waste of time trying to engage MAXON, I'm not asking you personally to break an NDA in anyway shape or form but you are keen to try and misrepresent a request for more open dialogue and to address long standing issues that many users have commented on over the years. 

If there is no official response from MAXON then, yes, it's clear they do not care enough. I continue to have zero faith that these issues are being actively worked on and will be delivered anytime soon, that is my conclusion.

I did at one stage think the reason for the series of lacklustre upgrades was because the MAXON development team were diverted onto a massive core rewrite that would free up the known bottlenecks but as time goes on I don't believe that is the case. Instead I believe the lacklustre updates are a symptom of MAXON believing they can ship as little as they can get away with.

If R17 arrives with massively improved object handling performance, a high performance replacement for Xpresso, modern UV tools I will take ever single word back and apologise unreservedly.

​Let's try to be a bit more balanced here.  I think MAXON knows who they need to satisfy and that is probably the major graphic houses where C4D satisfies a piece of their production pipeline.  In fact, I think MAXON's entire business strategy is focused on getting into those production pipelines and that is why they are busy working on integration with Side Effects, Next Limit, Allegorithmic, etc. software than improving core tools for the single user.  Why upgrade Bodypaint when Mari is the tool of choice in a production pipeline?  Remember that production houses purchase many seats of C4D, and one seat of C4D costs the same whether the employees are using the whole package or just MoGraph.  Also, think of where MoGraph would sit in a production pipeline and that may explain why features at the front of the pipeline (like texturing) or back of the pipeline (like network rendering) got less love over time.

This is the only explanation I can think for the direction that MAXON has taken in the past few years.  Unfortunately, the individual user or small studio suffers with those decisions as we represent a very small part of the overall user-base.  I would like to believe that they do listen to us (I trust Hrvoje when he tells us this), but we are low on the priority list because we just don't represent that much in sales. Everyone on this forum is probably an individual user and that is why we are so frustrated.

MAXON does hear us.  MAXON does care.  But the amount of money we represent to MAXON does not keep the lights on or pay employee's salaries, so our needs and wants are last on the list.  It's that simple.  No one likes to be told that they are a low priority and that is why it is better for MAXON to have such a tight NDA and remain so silent. 

Relative to buggy features, again business decisions are made on where to direct resources to address each one of them.  They know about them, but are only working on those that have the greatest impact to their biggest customers.  Companies make these decisions all the time.  Look at all the recent noise on how GM made decisions relative to their recalls if you don't believe me. 

Autodesk and The Foundary probably have a more equal distribution of sales from the individual users relative to large production houses and that is why their behaviors are different.

I would rather believe that this is what going on rather than the worst case alternative that everyone seems to be jumping to: That MAXON is out to milk their user base of every last dime with very little regard to providing a quality product.  Like Hrvoje implied, that is a losing strategy over time and does not make sense.  Companies really don't operate that way unless they perceive that the resources necessary to compete over the long term are so significant and result in such little additional market growth that they will end up losing money.  At that point, they are working to maximize profit for the business owners before exiting the market all together. I don't believe that is the case otherwise we would not be getting updates....they would just sell us MSA's but provide nothing back.

Sorry...but our place is at the back of the bus.  It is what it is and that won't change anytime soon.  If you want more love from the company you buy your software from then everyone best follow Nigel's lead and use a package where the individual user represents a bigger part of their business.

Dave

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