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Leaving or staying with C4D for what and why?


Fastbee

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But I do. Currently the communication policy in the company is simply like that, which doesn't mean it won't change in future. As far as I am aware MAXON decided not to communicate about future development mostly to be responsible and not promising something that for some reason it couldn't potentially deliver. I simply don't understand why people are so focused on that? I never saw anyone questioning similar policy in other companies? For example, nobody is questioning a car or smartphone company to reveal what they are working on, but somehow MAXON is not entitled to keep it's technology and development plans for themselves as others are.

And that is exactly why he is leaving cgtalk as moderator because he is frustrated that people are drawing conclusions and speculate with his every post among other things. Here you are falsely, with no insight or inhouse knowledge at all presuming that marketing people exceed developers and other employees. You couldn't be me more wrong but regardless you stated it as fact as though you are sure that is the case. I can see how he became tired after years and years on forum in regard to that.

 

But he is not MAXON representative. It is incredible that people simply can't understand this and regardless of how many times he stated this in bold, the conclusion is that since he works for MAXON he must be by default, by nature of things their spokesmen. Imagine that you work in car company and that your neighbors who happen to have those cars knock on your doors and see you as representative? I simply fail to see the logic behind this.

@ilayspire

I am not sure why are you disinforming people about half of people shown in MAXON video are not working there anymore? That is simply not true.
It is perfectly normal in software development that people are coming and leaving, depending on various factors. Fact that one developer leaves has no impact on any larger company such as MAXON. In recent years there was far, far more people coming in that leaving but somehow people seem to concentrate on event that can be perceived as negative (developer leaving) instead of 10 or 50 coming.

 

1. Frankly your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny, plenty of companies get out there and explain what's coming in broad terms even the most secret of organisations like Apple are becoming freer with information. The reason why people want to know if there concerns are being addressed is because they are becoming less confident that MAXON is taking their concerns seriously. We've 3 very light upgrades,get a motion tracker that is amateur level ahead of other far more pressing and useful tools. I don't want to hear if MAXON understands the object setup is slow I want to hear they are actively working on it and have been for the last 4 years. I also want to hear that bodypaint is either dead or as part of the sculpting improvements a new texture painting system is on the way.

2. The notion that Srek is NOT a MAXON representative is quite a strange comment to make given he posts there during working hours. He obviously does it with the full backing of the MAXON management. Why did he delete the MAXON company pinned threads on CGS? The job adverts etc? If he's just a FL why is it he that posts the MAXON press release information and company financial results? Either he is a company rep or he isn't? If he isn't then you maybe can understand why there is the confusion, no?

3. Again, MAXON chose the content of the marketing video and if they chose to misrepresent the marketing/developer balance then that's their fault not ours for drawing that conclusion. If MAXON were more open we would know who is working there like and if they attended NAB and SIGGRAPH and actually met the customers they might get some useful feedback to take back to Germany.

50 developers coming in? Is that a real figure?

 

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My business is built on C4D. The way that I put a roof over my family's head is entirely through the use of C4D. Without communication or a 'road map' MAXON is expecting me to plan the future of my business and my long term prosperity based on absolutely nothing. It is utterly bizarre that they think this acceptable

So, you want a company to reveal you it's plans for future development, strategies and planning? Really? :)
It eludes me how everyone thinks that people that created, envisioned, made, designed, coded, tested, repaired and maintained such a large software product are the ones that clearly don't know what they are doing only because, when they decide something that can't be communicated to customers due to various factors and with freedom users expect from them, suddenly they are non communicative monsters, stupid, crazy, lazy, reality disconnected, ignorant bunch. That is what I find utterly bizzare on forums.

As for cars, I knew the new Ferrari 488 was going to be turbocharged about a year before it was release and very few people's business is based on a smart phone.

You knew when it was already a done deal - you didn't knew anything while it was in development. Also, I believe you misunderstood the smartphone part. Company that makes the smartphone is dependent on that smartphone and if it has anything that is ahead of competition it won't certainly share that on public forums.

 

No-one is expecting them to tell us every last detail of their business or to reveal a game changer they may have tucked up their sleeve. But a level of disclosure that allows us to project forward and make informed decisions about the future of our businesses is not too much to ask.

Isn't this already happening? Check the latest releases and requests from few years back. Most of them are in C4D today. Doesn't that give you confidence?

 

@Cutman

1. Ok, then here is my statement in  broad terms. MAXON is constantly working on improving C4D in every possible way and provides new version each year. But you are not happy since you don't want broad terms, you want details and that is something you simply can't accept at this point. Any company that has technological advancement of any kind in any business is not going to reveal anything of substance. Talks about companies being more open are there when they in fact have nothing solid except general direction of their business domain.

2. Again, you take all to your own interpretation instead of hearing (or reading) exact letters and words to avoid the confusion. Once again, and final on this. He is not MAXON Representative. The fact he posts and was doing forum administration was clearly stated by him and many others many times that it is only his own private enthusiasm. Also nothing prevents him from posting during his coffee break, lunch time, day off or vacation.

3. Video was made for fun, just to show that there are real people behind company. Most of the employees are not shown (people work remotely and there are worldwide offices) and the video was certainly not intended as a means to send any message about balance between departments.

 If MAXON were more open we would know who is working there like and if they attended NAB and SIGGRAPH and actually met the customers they might get some useful feedback to take back to Germany.

That is exactly what they are doing around the world each year. If you were at any of those events I am sure you know you can talk to them and they would gladly hear you out, this year also. So, if you can attend, hope to MAXON booth.

open linkedin and search over MAXON profile

What exactly are you referring too? I simply don't understand what you are trying to communicate here? :)

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Even being the leader, Autodesk made great steps in term of openness indeed and it works. Sure MAXON can learn from them, especially for their requests forum.  

It's a topsy turvy world when a 3d conglomerate run by the evil Emperor Zurg (Autodesk that is) is being put forward as an example of best practise when it comes to open communication.  :)

I think the thing that many people don't get around MAXON (including you @HSrdelic, and I know you don't actually work for MAXON) is that you can't expect people to be strong armed into MSA agreements on a continual basis if they're blind to what their hard earned is getting them.

Forgetting whether Modo is a better or worse product than C4D, at least The Foundry allow you to miss upgrade cycles without penalty and are open about the direction of travel for Modo. 

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Oh...this story just gets better and better.  R15 plugins no longer work (unless recompiled) is just one more bitter pill to swallow.  I would also imagine that R16 plugins, while possibly still working in R17, would still need to be recompiled to take advantage of the new Take System.

I normally steer well clear of this kind of discussion but I can't let this go by. As a result of an throwaway remark by another user we now have a rumour that plugins won't work in R17. So look, here are the real facts of the matter:

1. Any new release of Cinema may - I say may - break some existing plugins. That has happened before in every new release and it will happen again. There's nothing special about R17 in this respect. Those plugins which don't work may fall by the wayside if the coder doesn't want to support it any more, but that's life. It isn't MAXON's fault or the coder's fault or R17's fault.

2. A plugin only needs to be recompiled for R17 if it doesn't work in R17. If it does work, nothing needs to be done. If it needs to be recompiled, it may require a little extra work on the part of the coder, sure.

3. A plugin which works in R17 should work fine in the Takes system. I know this because X-Particles works in R17 and it works with Takes (and Takes is a great new feature, BTW).

4. For what it's worth, X-Particles was and still is compiled with the R14 SDK and we see no need to change that this time. Maybe for R18 we will need to, maybe we won't.

So please - no rumours about plugins not working, that's just not justified. Don't let your dislike of this release or annoyance with MAXON obscure the truth.

Steve

 

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I normally steer well clear of this kind of discussion but I can't let this go by. As a result of an throwaway remark by another user we now have a rumour that plugins won't work in R17. So look, here are the real facts of the matter:

1. Any new release of Cinema may - I say may - break some existing plugins. That has happened before in every new release and it will happen again. There's nothing special about R17 in this respect. Those plugins which don't work may fall by the wayside if the coder doesn't want to support it any more, but that's life. It isn't MAXON's fault or the coder's fault or R17's fault.

2. A plugin only needs to be recompiled for R17 if it doesn't work in R17. If it does work, nothing needs to be done. If it needs to be recompiled, it may require a little extra work on the part of the coder, sure.

3. A plugin which works in R17 should work fine in the Takes system. I know this because X-Particles works in R17 and it works with Takes (and Takes is a great new feature, BTW).

4. For what it's worth, X-Particles was and still is compiled with the R14 SDK and we see no need to change that this time. Maybe for R18 we will need to, maybe we won't.

So please - no rumours about plugins not working, that's just not justified. Don't let your dislike of this release or annoyance with MAXON obscure the truth.

Steve

 

Spedler,

Apologies.  You guys are one of the reasons why I am on the fence with staying with C4D.  A great team making a great product with a tremendous focus on providing unsurpassed value with each release (XP-3 still leaves me gob-struck).

Is that too much ask for in this world!!!  ;-)

Dave

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So please - no rumours about plugins not working, that's just not justified. Don't let your dislike of this release or annoyance with MAXON obscure the truth.

Steve

 

Hey Steve, If that was my remark I can only apologise unreservedly. I couldn't live without XParticles and is without doubt the main reason I am sill using C4D it has entirely taken over from Mograph for moving lots of objects around.

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Yeah, Steve, you was in MAXON, know their secrets.

4 position, strange, i sure that i see notification from sdk team ... that need recompile to r16 sp2 - http://www.plugincafe.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11222
if not - got crashes :clint_eastwood: 

for 17 > need sdk 15-16 and ...r14
if need features of 17 -> need to compile with r17.

Or author of plug-in is gone or drop development?!

Ah well, I've never worked for MAXON and don't work for them now. I really know nothing about what goes on in MAXON HQ. I'm just in the third-party developer program, which is a kind of second-class citizen compared to the beta testers. And I pay for my MSA just as you do :-)

I think that post you're referring to meant that if you had built a plugin with the R16 SDK you needed to rebuild it, but it's not clear if you needed to rebuild if an earlier SDK had been used. In any case we don't use any of the function calls listed so there's no problem there for us right now. Nor do we use R17-specific features (XP runs in R13 upwards, after all).

Steve

 

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Hey Steve, If that was my remark I can only apologise unreservedly. I couldn't live without XParticles and is without doubt the main reason I am sill using C4D it has entirely taken over from Mograph for moving lots of objects around.

Hey, I'm pointing no fingers. I just think it's strange how quickly rumours can get started and this one needed to be terminated ASAP.

We'll carry on developing X-Particles and if we need to rebuild for any C4D release now or in the future, we will do that.

Steve

 

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So, you want a company to reveal you it's plans for future development, strategies and planning? Really? :)
It eludes me how everyone thinks that people that created, envisioned, made, designed, coded, tested, repaired and maintained such a large software product are the ones that clearly don't know what they are doing only because, when they decide something that can't be communicated to customers due to various factors and with freedom users expect from them, suddenly they are non communicative monsters, stupid, crazy, lazy, reality disconnected, ignorant bunch. That is what I find utterly bizzare on forums.

 

Okay everyone....let's take a deep breath because responses like that will force the moderators will shut this thread down.

...errr...wait a minute.... ;-)

HSrdelic,

MAXON has every right to make their own choices relative to what they do or do not divulge.  Also, I don't think anyone is painting every MAXON employee with the same brush.  I have absolute respect for you and Srek and the geniuses who are actually developing the code. 

But let's look at the recent past and then ask a few questions.

  • Prior to the release of R17, Nigel's departure from C4D was the shot heard around the world.  In my opinion, it was a heroic act because he burned a bridge with MAXON and the beta team.  Now, he could have just kept his mouth shut and quietly moved over to modo 901 while still enjoying a free license of C4D.  He had more to lose than gain by stating his position but he was upset enough over what was in the R17 beta and how MAXON is treating the user community that he decided to do something about it.  I am sure he also carefully considered when to announce that he was hanging it up with C4D --- obviously, doing it before the R17 announcement and Siggraph had more impact.   We all know Nigel, he is NOT a rash nor vindictive person.  But the actions of MAXON on R17 obviously stretched his patience to the breaking point.  Why MAXON leadership should not take that as a warning sign is beyond me.
  • Two major C4D forums are not happy with R17.  Your reply along with Srek's departure from the CGN forum are proof that tempers are running hot over how MAXON leadership and C4D are being negatively perceived by those who visit the forums.
  • Whether or not Forum members represent an adequate cross section of the entire C4D user community is open to debate.  
  • Regardless of MAXON Leadership's actual position relative to "customer communications" or forums in general, odds are that they are pretty well aware of the negative opinions expressed in the forums on how they've managed product development over the past 5+ years and the value which R17 provides.  If anything, they have both you and Srek to communicate what is going on in the forums.  
  • I am sure that regardless of whether or not MAXON's leaders consider Forum members are a worthy part of their entire user-base, they probably would rather NOT have all this negative web-chatter right before Siggraph.  I think we can all agree, that is never good for business.

I always live by the adage that "if you want to keep getting what you are getting, keep doing what you are doing".  Therefore, is MAXON happy with how things are going? Do you honestly agree that MAXON should NOT make any changes to how they communicate to customers?  Do you feel that the current course of events, if left unchanged, is ONLY going to lead to greater days ahead for MAXON?

My opinion:  If this were my business, I would really NOT want to wait for the user base to start collapsing before I begin to rethink changes to customer care particularly as it related to product development.  Even if even if disenchanted Forum members only represented a 0.1% drop in their user base, that is still lost sales that could have been avoided had their been a change to a more open communication policy that is working quite well for MAXON's competitors.  I mean, we are not asking them to forge new ground here.  There is enough proof out there that open communications strikes a more positive response than no communication.

What has MAXON really got to lose by simply acknowledging that they are addressing some aging portions of the program?

...that is unless they are NOT addressing those aging areas at all?

In which case, I strongly suggest that you had best close the Cafe because you are in for a very frustrating future.

Nigel got it right after all!!

Dave

 

 

 

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