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Leaving or staying with C4D for what and why?


Fastbee

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Sorry, Steve Pedler

I mix up  you with Steve Baines

is MAXON happy with how things are going? Do you honestly agree that MAXON should NOT make any changes to how they communicate to customers?  Do you feel that the current course of events, if left unchanged, is ONLY going to lead to greater days ahead for MAXON?

I think developers were shocked from such "hello new shiny r17". Product managers are as man from steel or gods, ... are busy in saving of world

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Hey, I'm pointing no fingers. I just think it's strange how quickly rumours can get started and this one needed to be terminated ASAP. We'll carry on developing X-Particles and if we need to rebuild for any C4D release now or in the future, we will do that.

I must say I am puzzled by this, too. When you by extra accessories for you car, you often have to look it up in table, finding your car model, and production year, sometimes even production month. Nobody blames Ford because old equipment won't fit in a brand new car. Software platforms are under constant development, C4D is compiled using Visual Studio among, other compilers. And the Microsoft OS and tools are constantly evolving. MAXON has to follow up, and besides C4D is also constantly evolving, luckily enough. It is the plug-in maker's responsibility to follow up whenever Microsoft and/or MAXON makes improvements and changes. Either throw in the towel, make R16 the last supported plugin, or make the necessary changes, recompile, and release an R17 version.
That is is MAXON's fault that a plug-in for R13-R16 won't work in R17, is like complaining about still-stand, when you have put the carriage in front of the horse.
Ok, I am a little tired of the topic in general. In 3 weeks the R17 DVD will arrive. I am still on the MSA, as long as I can afford doing 3D (I am currently a hobbyist).
-Ingvar

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I can't see MAXON changing their ways regarding MSA and open communications any time soon seeing as their current way of doing things is proving very profitable.

€18m in revenues with a 43.2% EBITDA margin is not only approx twice the margin of any other company within the Nemetschek group; it's more than twice the sector average too. That's a whole lot of MSA's there, and MAXON has very little incentive to do things differently unless they see a seismic shift in sales/maintenance contracts. A few dissenting voices on a couple of specialist forums probably means very little to MAXON's sales and marketing operation.

www_nemetschek_com_fileadmin_user_upload_IR_Files_Praesentationen_Factsheet_pdf.png

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A few dissenting voices on a couple of specialist forums probably means very little to MAXON's sales and marketing operation.

I agree. I also think that Maxon are quite prepared to take a few hits with R17 in the knowledge that better things are coming with R18 and R19 (pure speculation on my part).

Prior to the release of R17, Nigel's departure from C4D was the shot heard around the world.  In my opinion, it was a heroic act because he burned a bridge with MAXON and the beta team.  Now, he could have just kept his mouth shut and quietly moved over to modo 901 while still enjoying a free license of C4D.  He had more to lose than gain by stating his position but he was upset enough over what was in the R17 beta and how MAXON is treating the user community that he decided to do something about it.  I am sure he also carefully considered when to announce that he was hanging it up with C4D --- obviously, doing it before the R17 announcement and Siggraph had more impact.   We all know Nigel, he is NOT a rash nor vindictive person.  But the actions of MAXON on R17 obviously stretched his patience to the breaking point.  Why MAXON leadership should not take that as a warning sign is beyond me.

As I've said my decision to quit C4D was a range of things as was selling this place off. The timing of it all was not because I wanted to drop a bombshell before the R17 announcement but mainly down to when I bought Modo 801 with the free upgrade to 901. I decided at the same time that if Modo was going to be my 3D application of choice then owning and running the Cafe with my heart not behind C4D then I had to go plus I had been thinking of stepping aside all of 2015 since cycling was my main interest. I pay for hosting 3 months in advance and when I cancelled the hosting the last day of hosting was early July.

So for me, R17 is a very weak upgrade and as I've said it should have been called 16.5. Yes there are some great enhancements but not that many. Long standing issues that have had user requests for enhancements for years received no attention. By that I mean Bodypaint and polygon modelling. There's others as well but for me these are the 2 main ones of interest for me. Once you couple that with Maxon's virtually zero communication and a "Milestone" Modo 901 upgrade then jumping ship was an easy decision to make. I'm at the point where even if Maxon delivers big time with R18, I don't care. I can't see them surpassing Modo's polygon modelling tools any time soon or UV tools.

I would hope that in the next day or so everyone has got things off their chests regarding R17 and move on. Keep using Cinema 4D or whatever else you use and enjoy it. Maxon isn't going to change.

BTW, good luck to Srek / Bjorn Marl after he stepped down as being a Forum Leader in the CG Talk forums. Tough position to be in i.e. working for Maxon and being a forum moderator. Some of the posts in their forums I would have deleted and or banned the member but had he done it, he would have been heavily criticized. I'm up for some robust discussion but there's no place for abuse. I've chosen not to post in the "Notice" thread as I don't want to be drawn into the discussion. It's about him not me.

BTW if anyone wants to read how Modo users view R17 the following topic in The Foundry (Spelt it right this time) makes interesting reading:

http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=113766

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Okay....at 43% margins it is clear that MAXON will not change.  That is rather disappointing and "could" mean that that there is more passion for preserving margin than for providing great tools which delight their customers.  Not sure about that, but R17 is doing nothing to convince me otherwise.  Being a Studio owner really hurts because I am paying a huge premium for R17 over what non-Studio users are paying.  Of course, holding on to a program that is becoming a joke at a competitor site (based on the modo link Nigel provided), does not help either.  No one likes to be laughed at while they are being robbed.

In the meantime, I am going to download the modo 901 demo and try to get the hang of that program once again.   I wish I had more than a month to come up to speed on modo because that is how much time I have until my MSA needs to be renewed.  The cost for me to upgrade to modo 901 is less than the Studio MSA.  That's pretty tempting. Unfortunately, I hate the modo interface.  I just wish there was a modo user who had a stellar reputation making tutorials.  Preferably someone who came from C4D and therefore knows where C4D users may struggle with the modo interface.

Do we know anyone like that?

Dave

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I just wish there was a modo user who had a stellar reputation making tutorials.  Preferably someone who came from C4D and therefore knows where C4D users may struggle with the modo interface.

Do we know anyone like that?

Dave

One of the biggest weaknesses in the modoverse is the lack of good tutorials. There's an odd lot of things here and there, the Lynda tutorials aren't bad, better than DT's in my opinion. But it's a barren cupboard compared to what you can access for Cinema.

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To answer the original question, I plan to stay with C4D and I plan to upgrade to R17 (assuming I can talk the powers that be where I work into it - hopefully they read MAXON's overblown hype...)

My reasoning is that I know it fairly well and it fits with our workflow quite nicely. Would I love to see the better object handling? Of course! But I'm also not disappointed it wasn't in the R17 release because I had no reason to expect it to be there. I am, however, very excited about the new Take system. I use the Increment and Save feature a lot, but it's a pain to have to hunt back into the old versions to find the one with the thing you need in it and then copy and paste things into your new one and then try to make it fit in. When you can just jump to a take that already has things in place...my GOSH IT'S FULL OF STARS!

Takes and tokens together look supremely useful. And now I won't have to open up Illustrator just to do some basic spline stuff? Awesome. I can use more than two splines in a spline mask? Joy! And I hear C4D renders a bit faster overall? Yes, please! Better animation tools? Huzzah - overshoot is gone! We can have named object buffers? HEAR THE CROWD GO WILD!

I know other software packages have had similar tools to some of these for a while, but those other packages also DON'T have a lot of what C4D has. Plus, I don't have those other software packages in my workflow, so I'm glad that I'll have those tools now. Props to the MAXON team for building one of the most stable, easy-to-use 3d packages out there. Now, please, keep on making it better!

I hope that 3dKiwi's guess that MAXON is working on an improved core comes true so that I can continue to enjoy C4D into the future. Cinema 4D-level ease of use in modern UV tools would be great. Better object handling and viewport performance are crucial as well.
If MAXON is working on a new core, I can understand them not wanting to release it in parts and are just waiting until it's completely done. I mean, look how upset some folks have been about After Effects CC 2015. AE is undergoing a major change under the hood and CC 2015 is the partly-done version of it. So a number of things (like multiprocessing) aren't present yet and a few folks are going stark raving mad over the whole thing. Granted, Adobe should have handled it better and not defaulted to removing CC 2014 when you updated to CC 2015... but that's another discussion for another thread.

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One of the biggest weaknesses in the modoverse is the lack of good tutorials. There's an odd lot of things here and there, the Lynda tutorials aren't bad, better than DT's in my opinion. But it's a barren cupboard compared to what you can access for Cinema.

There's a wealth of great tutorials in Modo land if you know where to look. Here's a couple of great free resources on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardYot/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2NYo3MqqKi96TqQyl5_jQ

The Peter Stammbach ones are particularly good for beginners and experienced modelers alike if you start back at his first posts (great for experienced modelers of any modeling package really). And Richard Yott has recently put together series of steller pay tutorials on Vimeo that go through the delights of the Modo render engine.

https://vimeo.com/richardyot/videos

My final recommendation would be for the  Master Rigging Course by Rich Hurry (major Pixar bod) which is actually the best overview of Modo's tools around - not just rigging specific stuff. And the latest version provides over 60 hrs of content.

I'd be remiss not to mention this excellent resource that's maintained by one of the Modo forum regulars. Literally hundreds of tutorials (many free and with nice explanations too).

https://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=36&t=80320

 

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bonobo - I doubt you'll get a reply. They seldom even answer questions that people ask on their Facebook page. A question about when will R17 be coming out that was posted yesterday has still not been answered. Any company worth their salt would pretty much have their own facebook page monitored 24/7. This is just one of many examples on their Facebook page where questions go unanswered.

Dave - some good suggestions there for tutorials. I suggest that you just concentrate on some modelling tutorials to begin with. Learn the basics first. If you try to do a bit of everything straight off it will be overwhelming as there's too much to take in. I'm taking a long term to approach to getting up to speed with Modo. It's not something that can be picked up in a few weeks. Obviously having prior experience with it and C4D helps. You almost need to chuck out how your workflow works in C4D and learn Modo's way. Once it clicks and that can take some time you'll then be a lot happier.

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There's a wealth of great tutorials in Modo land if you know where to look. Here's a couple of great free resources on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardYot/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2NYo3MqqKi96TqQyl5_jQ

The Peter Stammbach ones are particularly good for beginners and experienced modelers alike if you start back at his first posts (great for experienced modelers of any modeling package really). And Richard Yott has recently put together series of steller pay tutorials on Vimeo that go through the delights of the Modo render engine.

https://vimeo.com/richardyot/videos

My final recommendation would be for the  Master Rigging Course by Rich Hurry (major Pixar bod) which is actually the best overview of Modo's tools around - not just rigging specific stuff. And the latest version provides over 60 hrs of content.

I'd be remiss not to mention this excellent resource that's maintained by one of the Modo forum regulars. Literally hundreds of tutorials (many free and with nice explanations too).

https://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=36&t=80320

 

Yes, there are lots of gems to be found and Richard Yot's videos are stellar.

But I would still maintain that there's a lack of the big multi hour videos that you can find for Cinema or Max or Maya at DT or Lynda that will take you from soup to nuts. And there's also a lack of tool focused videos like we used to have with Vertex Pusher. I like the long videos because I work most of the day in AutoCAD and Rhino and when I get back in the evening I like logging in and picking up where I left off - rather like a long TV series. And I like tool specific videos because they function as a good reference during the work day.

I just started a new Maya LT tutorial on Lynda by George Maestri (sp ?) that seems real good so far. But there's nothing on Lynda for modo 801 or 901 and the DT modo videos aren't that good in my opinion. 

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The thread over at The Foundry is very funny. If you haven't read it go take a look. Despite that we seem to be a laughing stock I'm laughing along with it.

It's an interesting read. My prize for funniest comment about R17 though goes to someone on Reddit who said 'Oh great, a bookshelf generator.. now I have somewhere to store the cogwheels I don't use'.

Cheers,

Brian

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