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Fastbee

Leaving or staying with C4D for what and why?

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All people are asking for is a few scraps of information that the software that they have paid a lot of money for is going to see development in areas that have seemingly been abandoned.

Yes, no-one could reasonably expected MAXON to reveal anything that might prejudice their commercial interests and no-one is asking that of them. Broad strokes will do. Rick's news that BP has not been abandoned is the sort of thing and in comparison to what we've had so far is a near revelation and to be applauded. We don't need to know what they're doing, just that they're doing something. If they are doing something, my guess is they'll do it well. Most of the time they do.

In a previous life I was an EMC engineer working in an area with access to secret and commercially sensitive information...

Excellent post. Well written and good analysis of the issue.

Cutman... just switch to a different software, you clearly have some rage problems... 

A ridiculous claim. Cutman's posts are, on the whole and in particular the one partially quoted above, a thoughtful and considered response to MAXON's current reluctance to communicate.

It is a battle because we can only manage expectations for what we can deal with immediately.

The current expectation we can manage (with current policy) is keeping you all informed that the communication issue is a top priority...yet this is continually refuted by the people we are trying to communicate with. 

This is a fair point and it does seem quite clear that MAXON now acknowledge the issue and are doing something about it. We thank you for that and it's reasonable to now expect a little patience on our part.

I think this thread should be closed...

Don't deprive people of a means of communication with MAXON just because you don't like it. If you don't want to read what is posted just click on something else. 

Exactly.. asking people if they want to stay or leave makes no sense.. first.. no one "leaves" something, because you dont magically lose the knowledge once you use another software.

If you decide not to use a piece of software again, you have 'left'.

here in this thread we got two answers: MAXON is asking user feedback about bodypaint, and MAXON is asking user feedback about an official forum.

We have been told in broad terms that BP is still under development and that some sort of forum is a possibility. Nowhere have we been asked for feedback on either. There's an important distinction there.

I'm fine if the is topic is closed down. It has pretty much run its course and people need to get on and do some 3D.

It would be a shame to close a thread that is getting useful and much welcome input from two MAXON representative, not to mention that value it provides them as they hear the voice of its users base (I'm sure they're quite able to sort the wheat from the chaff and, of course, we are but a small sample).

I think this topic is going around in circles. It's not censorship if there's nothing new being added. 618 posts!

Again, don't deny others a voice just because you're done with the thread. There are plenty of other threads to read if this one is not for you.

 

Sorry for all the quotes but I've been away for a day or two and there's been a lot of posts in my absence.

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Cutman and his ilk eh? What is my ilk?

Here's what I think my ilk are. Those people who were drawn to C4D from other applications who saw MAXON making ingenious mograph features around R11 and over a couple of releases there appeared to be purpose and direction. All change, R17 comes on the back of several disappointing releases and still no sign that long standing issues and requests are even being considered for replacement or update and MAXON playing the aloof card. We look at Maya and Houdini and we see progress in some cases it's revolution in others it's evolution but everything keeps moving forward. We see Modo acquiring Fabric support in the coming months and we look back at Xpresso/TP, cloth and Bodypaint and wonder whether we should laugh or cry.

I suspect many of you who currently think you are not of "my ilk" will become so in the future and will look elsewhere faster than MAXON are prepared to change.

Bobc4d, if you want to worship at the alter of mediocrity that's fine, you keep paying your MSA and MAXON will keep serving up releases like R17. When a Sketchup importer gets feature status you should understand the writing is on the wall. I'm passionate about the work I do for a living and have invested thousands this year in new equipment and I'll do the same next year. If you and others want to tread water that's your prerogative but don't be surprised that others have more ambition.

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Really, the only acceptable option at this point is to continue to let you all know that this is something that will be addressed.

(And yes, object evaluation is a huge undertaking. HUGE.)

 

There's been more said of importance in a couple of hints from you and Rick in the last 48hrs or so, than since R17 was announced (object evaluation and Bodypaint improvements etc). If only these things had been alluded to earlier, many of the concerns in sections of the user community could have been avoided.

Apologies for bringing Maya up again but lets analyse where they were 4 revisions or so ago - at rock bottom and looking like a dinosaur from a bygone age. But they took the bull by the horn, admitted they were off track publicly, and then managed expectations by making their customers aware of the scale of tasks required to get Maya back on track. What followed was major release after major release (interceded by extension releases) that delivered on their promises in a manageable fashion and rebuilt faith with their core customer segments. And all this whilst under the 'ugly, corporate ownership' of Autodesk! 4-5 years ago people were predicting Maya's demise, now most people would agree they've never been stronger - and this has happened whilst the competition should have been tearing shreds from Maya due to their move to a rental only model.

I work with larger studios where C4D (and Modo for what it's worth) is just a small part of the mix so I'm not so attached to the successes and failures of C4D as some of MAXON's freelance customers (or those in verticals such as broadcast and architecture). But I still want C4D to be a strong force as it's brought many innovations to market (particularly between R8-R13) and 4-6 studio grade DCC players in the space is hardly a case of being swamped with options. It's useful to look back on the revision history of C4D to put things into perspective (it's certainly clear to me the point at which MAXON appeared to be treading water in many core areas). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_4D#Version_history

It's sad to see this thread take a negative turn but I certainly don't consider that Cutman has said anything out of line as he is only stating his disappointments regarding the speed of developments in recent release cycles when compared to what's being achieved by the competition. I also see no reason to close this thread down even if it does appear to be going round in circles to some. Doing so will only agitate some of those who are already feeling disaffected.

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Worth pointing out that Rick and pgoski (sp?) offered some useful insights only recently so to suggest that this thread has become useless is kind of missing the point (admittedly I had to smack Rick with a Tom and Jerry inflatable mallet a few times then put an Acme rocket under him to get a response but, hey, whatever works, right?).

But I'd like to reply to the criticisms from the 'other' side before this thread is finally closed down. There is a lot push back about how ill treated HSrdelic has been from Vozz and others. I think that's inaccurate and not fair. In fact I can't find an insulting comment by anyone that is directed at Hsrdelic (please prove me wrong). What I see happening is users post complaints about MAXON then HSrdelic (and Srek before him) jumps to the defense of the company all the while insisting he is not representing the company, there is a back and forth, then HSrdelic (or Srek) go off in a huff. But no one has criticized HSrdelic or Srek.

I started a thread way back in the Spring to address this very issue and to make a suggestion which I will repeat here - stop acting like a company rep and stop assuming that you have to defend the company against all charges and you won't feel like you're up against the wall. Stop taking it personally. Autodesk reps never get involved in these disputes on their forums. They offer technical advice, solve license problems and suggest procedures but they never defend the company against users who have complaints because to do so would make it personal. That's the mistake you make (and it's your mistake, not ours). No one is insulting you, no one is demanding you answer for the company or it's policies or it's development plan. 

Autodesk bringing Mash to Maya is a real game changer and it means MAXON really has to up their game. Currently, they can put off upgrading essential functions like BP for years and still assume the mograph functions will keep their customers coming back even if they're disappointed in other areas of development. Mash will alter that equation and that means these threads complaining in detail about MAXON's current development pace should be seen in a positive light.

 

 

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Autodesk bringing Mash to Maya is a real game changer and it means MAXON really has to up their game. Currently, they can put off upgrading essential functions like BP for years and still assume the mograph functions will keep their customers coming back even if they're disappointed in other areas of development. Mash will alter that equation and that means these threads complaining in detail about MAXON's current development pace should be seen in a positive light.

I agree, Autodesk (and Modo also according of some clues in their forum) plan to directly besiege the last C4D backyard. Mograph still rocks but hasn't been updated for quite a while now, when you see presenters at Nab or Siggraph they begin to use more and more tools like Xparticles, python or Houdini to go further.

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We have been told in broad terms that BP is still under development and that some sort of forum is a possibility. Nowhere have we been asked for feedback on either. There's an important distinction there.

 

"BodyPaint development may have stalled for a bit, but is kicking back into gear." (Rick Barret)

"MAXON Product Management was actively seeking user feedback regarding BodyPaint at Siggraph and in studio visits the following week. I think most of you have already made your feedback known, but if you'd like you're welcome to put it in another thread or PM me and I'll pass it along." (Rick Barret)

I dont understand why the word "seeking feedback" cant be more clear to you. 

And about the possibility on the forum, if Rick wouldnt want feedback he wouldnt be listening our opinions, yet he does.

Perhaps your primary language, as well as I am, is not english?

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"BodyPaint development may have stalled for a bit, but is kicking back into gear." (Rick Barret)

"MAXON Product Management was actively seeking user feedback regarding BodyPaint at Siggraph and in studio visits the following week. I think most of you have already made your feedback known, but if you'd like you're welcome to put it in another thread or PM me and I'll pass it along." (Rick Barret)

I dont understand why the word "seeking feedback" cant be more clear to you. 

And about the possibility on the forum, if Rick wouldnt want feedback he wouldnt be listening our opinions, yet he does.

Perhaps your primary language, as well as I am, is not english?

The first quote is certainly not soliciting feedback. It's merely a very welcome statement that BP is not dead. As I mentioned before, this will be music to many people's ears and I'm excited by the idea that one of MAXON's great achievements has not been left to die.

As for the second, it's already been discussed that Siggraph and studio visits touch only a very small number of the user base and doesn't provide a channel for the larger user base. I wasn't aware of the other thread and I welcome that development. I haven't read the thread yet but everything in Rick's opening post sound like exactly what we want to hear, so that's all good.

Don't misunderstand my position, I think I'm starting to see a crack of light, mostly due to Rick's input here (a good reason why this thread should not be closed down). But some on this thread need to be a little less defensive. It's unproductive and, given that MAXON's own personnel are acknowledging the shortcomings, unnecessary. Bottom line, all of us who are raising concerns (call in complaining/whining if you like) love C4D, we just don't want to see it wither. Addressing longstanding user requests is hardly unreasonable, nor is asking to be treated professionally in terms of communications. Remember, for many of us, C4D is not a toy, it's the very foundation of our businesses.

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Don't misunderstand my position, I think I'm starting to see a crack of light, mostly due to Rick's input here (a good reason why this thread should not be closed down). But some on this thread need to be a little less defensive. It's unproductive and, given that MAXON's own personnel are acknowledging the shortcomings, unnecessary. Bottom line, all of us who are raising concerns (call in complaining/whining if you like) love C4D, we just don't want to see it wither. Addressing longstanding user requests is hardly unreasonable, nor is asking to be treated professionally in terms of communications. Remember, for many of us, C4D is not a toy, it's the very foundation of our businesses.

Very well put. When constructive criticism is misconstrued as personal attack it makes for a very uncomfortable atmosphere. In the main the Cafe has been free of the ugly, knarly atmosphere over on CGTalk and that's in no small part due to the (in the main) considered tone of the conversation (from both those critical of, and those defending MAXON).

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I disagree, we are on the lounge section of C4D cafe not in China or Russia. Beginning with this kind of censorship could be even worse for MAXON image and communication now that this forum is owned by a MAXON employee. 

 

Don't deprive people of a means of communication with MAXON just because you don't like it. If you don't want to read what is posted just click on something else. 

Guys, go back and read my REASON for suggesting this thread be closed and my SUGGESTION as an ALTERNATIVE (i.e. more but specific / topical threads). The reason this thread isn't valuable any longer is because of how vague it is and the fact that it's going in circles. Also you guys made a nice case in point about hyperbole (see bold).

There is no censorship and no deprivation to what I'm suggesting, which is to make specific, focused threads for people to talk about the things that concern them. Threads like this just lead (eventually) to people not remembering things correctly, misattributing ideas or demands, and worse. Nobody is saying this forum isn't the venue to commnicate with MAXON or to lodge complaints. But this thread is a jumbled mess at this point.

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Guys, go back and read my REASON for suggesting this thread be closed and my SUGGESTION as an ALTERNATIVE (i.e. more but specific / topical threads). The reason this thread isn't valuable any longer is because of how vague it is and the fact that it's going in circles. Also you guys made a nice case in point about hyperbole (see bold).

There is no censorship and no deprivation to what I'm suggesting, which is to make specific, focused threads for people to talk about the things that concern them. Threads like this just lead (eventually) to people not remembering things correctly, misattributing ideas or demands, and worse. Nobody is saying this forum isn't the venue to commnicate with MAXON or to lodge complaints. But this thread is a jumbled mess at this point.

I suggest you to go back and read your own post, it's not particularly about this thread but encouraging Hsrdelic to lock any new, vague threads like "why C4D disappoints me" it's something quite weird.

[edit] Also my statement was not to be taken litterally

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