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Leaving or staying with C4D for what and why?


Fastbee

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I thought Arail's post over at CGS struct the perfect tone.

If we as freelancers, small business owners and hobbyists are somehow seen as less important customers then please MAXON come out and make it perfectly clear we are not their target market. 

I've owned C4D since R10 and upgraded religiously, I think I've paid enough to voice an opinion, for the most part I have been extremely satisfied in fact I've been a strong advocate of C4D in working life not just on the internet. Since R14 my satisfaction level has dropped and the Team Render fiasco and now this very light R17. Are we really supposed to sit in silence and hand over our hard earned green and not voice an opinion? No. We just have to make our opinions felt without resorting to rudeness but no one can be held responsible for someone being overly sensitive.

MAXON should realise the fact people are motivated to vent their frustration is actually because they care and rather than running away from the feedback they should be encouraging it and dealing with it head on. Most forward thinking companies are using social media exactly this way to directly take views from their customers and improve their offerings.

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I agree Edouard. I don't see where the math comes from when Kai says "miniscule fraction". This is a niche market, as far as know. This isn't like Photoshop where there are millions and millions of registered users all across the world. The number of studios who do this kind of work for television and cinema is actually a miniscule fraction of the larger "graphic design / digital arts" community. MAXON then visits some modest fraction of those studios, right? I would bet in any given year MAXON visits and speaks directly with maybe 50-60 studio artists who use Cinema for CG, tops? I don't know. . . maybe I'm off my rocker but I'd be surprised if they had time to do more than that, given a 12 month dev cycle, and the fact that they're a pretty small company. 

Also from this niche market, I'm sure MOST already rely heavily on external solutions wherever C4D falls behind and MAXON makes no secret of that fact anymore, the Aixsponza's Seed on the R17 main web page is the perfect example (Arnold, Softimage ICE, Houdini, ZBrush, Modo), those studios just need a hub, no more. So when Kai says that forums are biased and not representative it's everything but fair as talking about studios is already biased from the very beginning.

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Like most software companies they have a roadmap for upcoming features and which release will have them. I am surprised why this release was light compared to R16 and some earlier versions.

I wonder if Cinema 4D is getting to be like Adobe Photoshop where there are fewer features on the roadmap so they spread it out with subsequent versions. I don't think Cinema 4D is at the feature saturation point that Adobe Photoshop is currently but if you look at Maya releases the past few years the number of new features has been slim also.

Well....there is a part of me that also "hopes" that MAXON is doing a balancing act between the old and new architecture.  I have no idea if a new architecture within C4D can be rolled out piece meal or whether it needs to be implemented all at once.  For example, could you completely rewrite the modeling core but leave the animation and/or texturing core with the old architecture.  Is the new take system part of the new architecture?  I would assume that if it truly is a new architecture, everything is interconnected and therefore the new architecture needs to be rolled out all at once.

With that said, remember that every new feature added to the old architecture will need to be reworked in the new architecture. So with every release prior to the new architecture,  MAXON just makes more work for themselves with every feature that is added.  Maybe the lackluster features added in R17 are indications that MAXON is running out of changes that they are willing/capable of making in the old architecture? Again, it is a balancing act between old and new and I would imagine sometimes difficult to manage.  I would also imagine that the product development road maps are well defined years in advance of each release and that the Product Managers new that the release prior to rolling out the new architecture would be weak.  In short, they probably new around R15 just how weak R17 would be.  

What I fault MAXON for is thinking that you could still give us half an upgrade and charge us full value.  I also fault the marketing team for their hubris in thinking that they could put the words "Landmark release" on R17 and get away with it.

So what does this mean?  Hang on because R18 will knock our socks off?  Sorry....not drinking that cool aide because some of the trust has been lost with how MAXON has handled R17.  Their continued silence is not helping matters.  

I am on the fence about whether to upgrade or not.  I do have modo 401 and the cost for me to upgrade to modo 901 is less than the Studio MSA.  But the modo interface really kills me (I just can't get the hang of it).  Also, while their particle system looks really interesting, they need a fluid simulation program to go with it (what's the point of showing a tornado in their particle demo if you can't realistically shade those particles to render as a tornado).  If Jawset started to make a plugin for modo, I might be tempted.  I am also not too thrilled about abandoning all my investment in C4D plugins, models and libraries from C4D Depot, Pixel Lab, GSG, etc.  All this stuff is what they refer to as a "software ecosystem" and C4D's is a bit more developed than modo's .... and probably part of the reason why MAXON thinks they can weather the R17 storm.  

I don't know.  A little love from MAXON right now in the form of getting the Houdini Engine for Studio users would help.  Remember that is a win for Side Effects as the HDA's are not all free.

Dave

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Every C4D artist I know demanded render layers for years. Demanded modeling updates and got them in the last three upgrades. Ok we do not us TR since we do not consider MAXON an network software developer and have 3rd party managers for the farm. And we use 3rd Party renderers like every studio.

It is worriying that guys here celebrate maya for its modeling upgrades while they simply catch up with C4D. Same with Houdini modeling: catching up.

Modo? Half the package of C4D.

Well, render layers looks very useful, and I read somewhere that TR works without issues with R17. Im looking forward to work with render layers.

But, you cant say Houdini is catching up, because of Houdini nodal approach, even one little modeling update means a lot. You just cant edit model history in Modo, Cinema 4D, 3DS Max or even Maya / XSI if you collapsed your history because the model gets too complex. With Houdini, you can do lots of variations of your model just tweaking parameters, so each update counts a lot. Just a copy node and the new modeling tools, and I can see myself building the terrain of an alien planet in half hour. And then some more time to make it editable as an asset.

Anyway, im also trying Modo, because learning modeling can be applied to any software, and its kinda cool. I miss the right click quick menu C4D has, and I also miss pressing space to toggle your last tool. But the action center, falloff and symmetry tools are really great. They are the best time savers one could get when modeling. I do however encountered 2 crashes in four hours of work (I find one crash in a week with C4D).

For me, there is only two possible ways: Either modo gets Mograph, or C4D gets modo viewport. Next year well see.

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Every C4D artist I know demanded render layers for years.

The Cafe is overflowing with threads that list people's wish lists for upcoming releases and these threads have been popping up for as long as I can remember. I don't remember render layers being a recurring theme.

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Maybe not all new features from R15, 16, 17 are useless even if they're unused for now...

For example -> maybe they started the sculpting tools so that they could incorporate Bodypaint at some point? "Just" add painting and UVs to the sculpting part and rename it and bodypaint is redone without touching the original codebase of BP. Other programs like zBrush and Moodbox started as sculpting tools and then grew bigger with painting and UVs. Maybe that's what they planned from the start, so while we are whining about not getting a bodypaint update it might already be happening. Of course this is no help at this point because UVs are still old, but maybe there's hope ;)

Of course I'm not satisfied with R17s new features but just wanted to add that some of the things that are already there might turn into something good not too far away from now. I hope.

I'll stay, the take system is going to save so much time and filespace on my SSD it's not even funny ^^ Here's a quote from Tolkien/Gandalf: "I will not say, do not weep, for not all tears are an evil."  :D :D :D

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Maybe not all new features from R15, 16, 17 are useless even if they're unused for now...

For example -> maybe they started the sculpting tools so that they could incorporate Bodypaint at some point? "Just" add painting and UVs to the sculpting part and rename it and bodypaint is redone without touching the original codebase of BP. Other programs like zBrush and Moodbox started as sculpting tools and then grew bigger with painting and UVs. Maybe that's what they planned from the start, so while we are whining about not getting a bodypaint update it might already be happening. Of course this is no help at this point because UVs are still old, but maybe there's hope ;)

Of course I'm not satisfied with R17s new features but just wanted to add that some of the things that are already there might turn into something good not too far away from now. I hope.

All quite possible, and that's why they need to communicate with their users.

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The Cafe is overflowing with threads that list people's wish lists for upcoming releases and these threads have been popping up for as long as I can remember. I don't remember render layers being a recurring theme.

Requested and request supported by quite a few Beta testers. No doubt studios as well. Many of the Beta testers work for one person or small studios. I have no problem with R17 including the new Takes system.

When I decided to jump ship I knew in advance that the R17 announced was going to be a very rocky one with many people unimpressed with Maxon. Many of Maxon's problems apart from under delivering stem from their code of silence in social media. The following is a post by Modo developer in the Modo forums yesterday. Can anyone recall anything similar from Maxon. I struggle to recall any over the last 11 years. This is one of many. Posts like this go a long way to calm things down and reassure users that they are being listened to.

Slow weight editing is a well known problem and very much at the top of the list for things we want to fix. It is a hard problem though which requires deep changes and that is why it is taking time, but you can be sure that we are very well aware of the problem and working on it.

Just a reminder folks to keep things civil here. The R17 threads over at CG Talk have got quite bitter. Not something we want here.

Nigel

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Gladly the cafe is not CGTalk. People mistake censorship with deleting trolling posts. And there was a lot of posts in there that should have been deleted. 

This upfront position on the Modo forums is quite cool.  Similar to the MCG group on Facebook. I asked a question and I was answered by the guy who coded MCG. Can't get better than this right? 

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