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Guest TeamZissou

Best practice for first model

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Guest TeamZissou
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  • @Cerbera Nice! Can I ask how you started this model? Was it from the first triangle you demonstrated or did you start with a plane?

    Trying to work out how you transitioned from modelling one triangle to another within the same object is hurting my brain!

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    Guest TeamZissou
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  • 21 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

    Here's how I would do the triangle shape. Select the 6 outer edges and do a Bevel but change the mode to Solid. I also changed the mitring to uniform as this gave what I would say is a cleaner result.

    Bevel.png

    Thanks, this seems like the quickest way to get even cuts on each edge. Am I right in thinking that these cuts or to 'sharpen' up the corners when the object is dropped into a subdivision surface?

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    When it came to it, I actually did most of it with the polygon pen. I started with a single poly on the left hand side, and ctrl-dragged out the top edge, adjusting points as I went so I was following the corner up and round to the right. Then I made a few cuts in these polys which allowed me to pull some of the diagonal edges out. Then I fixed the center points to 0 by scaling / moving them, so symmetry would work perfectly. So by now (under double symmetry I had the whole 'framework' done, so used 'close polygon hole' to fill in the triangle 'holes', then cut some more edges in to solve any triangles to quads.

    CBR

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    13 minutes ago, TeamZissou said:

    Thanks, this seems like the quickest way to get even cuts on each edge. Am I right in thinking that these cuts or to 'sharpen' up the corners when the object is dropped into a subdivision surface?

    No. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, this way of doing it will produce very rounded corners. To tighten those up you need additional points either side of the pointed areas, or for maximum tightness, you shouldn't use inner extrude at all, but make sure your control edges cross each other, forming a diamond at the top.

    We are all busy showing you how to create a perfect 3-point triangle from quads, but that is not actually what you want to do in this project. If you are using sub-d modelling, there is no need to use bevels at all - just ensure that your triangles' corners are defined by at least 2 or 3 points (like in my example), and then the SDS object will do all the rounding for you, and you will precisely control it by moving the outer points in relation to the center one.

    CBR 

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    Guest TeamZissou
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  • @Cerbera Thanks for clarifying! I'll give it a go with the Polygon Pen. I noticed you can ctrl click edges with this tool without have to switch modes, but is there a way to do this proportionately, i.e. the same as if you were to ctl click an edge with the move tool? 

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    8 minutes ago, TeamZissou said:

    @Cerbera Thanks for clarifying! I'll give it a go with the Polygon Pen. I noticed you can ctrl click edges with this tool without have to switch modes, but is there a way to do this proportionately, i.e. the same as if you were to ctl click an edge with the move tool? 

    I'm not following you - ctrl-dragging an edge out with the polypen is the same as doing it with the move tool isn't it ?

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    Yeah here's what the corners should look like if you want to keep them reasonably sharp using Sub-D's.  The closer the points are together at the corner the tighter the corner. As explained by Cerbera you need the little diamong shape otherwise the corner will be quite round. I did the bevel with "Default" mitering. Any sharper than this you might as well not bother using Sub-D's and have them sharp.

    abitrounded.png

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  • @Cerbera Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear. In the attached example on the left I ctrl+clicked the edge using the move tool and a new polygon slides out with its dimensions 'fixed' if you will. When I do the same with the polygon pen (example on the right) the new extrusion is 'loose' and I have to be very careful to keep it square.

    @3DKiwi Got it! Is there any advantage over to putting the model into a subdivision surface over say just bevelling the corner point and increasing the subdivisions (as shown in the second attached example). Again, just trying to understand best practice here.

     

    Example.jpg

    Corner.jpg

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    26 minutes ago, TeamZissou said:

    In the attached example on the left I ctrl+clicked the edge using the move tool and a new polygon slides out with its dimensions 'fixed' if you will. When I do the same with the polygon pen (example on the right) the new extrusion is 'loose' and I have to be very careful to keep it square.

    Oh I see what you mean. The polygon pen is a little limited in that way, and of course it can only extrude 1 edge at a time. My workflow with the poly pen tends to be extrude first, tweak later, rinse and repeat - that way your extrudes don't have to be accurate because you are tweaking the points after every extrude, and the point tweaks can use snapping (to splines in my example) to get them precisely placed. There is nothing to stop you freely switching between polypen and regular extrude - do whatever is most helpful at any given time.

     

    26 minutes ago, TeamZissou said:

    Is there any advantage over to putting the model into a subdivision surface over say just bevelling the corner point and increasing the subdivisions (as shown in the second attached example). Again, just trying to understand best practice here.

     

    Look at the topology of your bevelled corner. It's one massive ngon. If you are lucky it might render properly, but it's not good practice. However, with other settings you can get the bevel tool or bevel deformer to produce decent geometry, but it will involve quite a lot of messing about with settings, choosing certain edges to bevel one way, choosing another set to bevel more etc etc. IMO much better to do it with sub-d modelling, where you can forget all that and just control your curves with utterly predictable control edges, which are infinitely variable along the length of the model in a way that bevels cannot easily match. There are situations where bevelling is the preferable option, but for what you are trying to do here, sub-d makes total sense :)

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  • @Cerbera Ah, I'm with you, that makes total sense now. I was just concerned I was missing something with that tool!

    Thanks for clearing that up, I shall stick with sub-d! After watching the first couple of videos in that playlist you recommended I can see why this may cause an issue now.

    And if you're not already sick to death of answering my barrage of questions, do you mind if I ask if you can share a little more info as to how you extruded the triangle made of quads from the starting point of the rectangle on the left. I can do this comfortably now thanks to your examples when starting with a 3 sided disc, but I can't get my head around transitioning into this shape when extruding from a rectangle. Maybe I should have paid more attention in my high school maths lessons!

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    6 hours ago, Cerbera said:

    It's one massive ngon. If you are lucky it might render properly, but it's not good practice

    Depends what you're doing. If it's a more organic shape then yup, 4 sided polygons is the way to go as they are what Sub Division Surface modelling works best with. However if the surfaces are flat then hard surface modelling using N-Gons is quite acceptable and the chances of rendering artifacts is pretty minimal. Here for example is a model almost all done with N-Gons. There's a handful of parts sub d modelled but the majority is hard surface modelled with N-Gons.

    Final01.jpg

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    I guess we all have different standards of what is acceptable. @3DKiwi is a hugely knowledgeable guy, he really can model properly and yet he is fine with ngons, whereas I will never allow a single ngon in any scene I create ! :) For me, good 3D is all about the beautiful topology, the challenge of solving any shape into even quads; not necessarily doing something the fastest way possible.

    There will always be more respect from me for the person who can be bothered to topologize something really well than for someone who just put a spline in an extrude. There is no skill in that, and so no genuine sense of reward either. If it takes no work to create, then for me that is something of a pyrrhic victory. I encourage everyone to do these things properly because I know how rewarding it is when you finally solve a really difficult modelling problem. Not only do you get a flawless model that everyone admires (whether they admit it or not), but you have also improved your skills while you were solving it, which makes solving the next one easier and faster. Before you know it, you can produce flawless models in almost as little time as the people who are cheating their way to success with the no-skill / don't care methods :)

    I am not saying that it is wrong to use any object generation tools available in C4D, but I guarantee that if your brain is trained to preserve and seek out great topology you can use these tools much more precisely than the average user to get exactly the topology you want; your end model will be all the better for it, and the average level of modelling skill in the world just went up.

    Unfortunately we live in a world where cash is tight and deadlines are looming, so it is entirely understandable that modelling standards are not high, and that (especially new) people will use whatever quickest possible way to get something done (usually a boole, goddammit !) and they simply couldn't care less what the topo looks like as long it renders. That, for me, is a great shame.

    'Quatuor puncta omni tempore'.

    CBR

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