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MAXON is happy to invite you to a 'MAXON User Meetings 2017' which are taking place on 29.09. in Cologne, 06.10. in Hamburg, 13.10. in Munich. Regardless where you are, you are more than welcome to join the meeting. :)

 

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JFyelle    20
3 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

JF,
Fully understand the legal, financial and just plain "let's minimize the noise over undelivered promises" constraints that MAXON adopts relative to new features.   But just wondering at what point during the development process do certain features become locked for a release?  Is it always around Siggraph?  I would hope not as Siggraph is usually just one month before a full release notice.  There has to be some point far earlier where MAXON is fully committed to incorporating a new feature into the program.   And by committed, I mean "we don't have a release unless we get this implemented as so many other enhancements depend upon it".  


I ask because we look at the competition and it seems that they are more willing to share some details well ahead of their next release.  I would imagine, like MAXON, that they also don't want to over-promise and under-deliver so what they talk about has a 99.999% probability of being in the next release.  As such, there is almost no risk of giving its user's a sneak peek much earlier in the release cycle because come hell or high water that feature will be in the program.  

There has to be features planned for R19 that also fall into a similar category?  So while discussing some features will entail the risks you outlined, I can't imagine that all features carry that same risk.

Again, I fully support and respect your policy.  But the next time your sitting in a product development meeting, and the Program Manager is just tickled pink about meeting schedule for features X,Y and Z, then ask yourself and the team what the harm will be to share that same level of optimism with your customers for those features?

Dave

Because we have pretty high quality standards, we tend to work on a feature's design and identify workflow improvements until very late in our cycle.  Then, a finished feature doesn't necessarily means it will goes in a specific release.   The release content itself is decided late when it is possible for our sales and marketing people to understand what they can put in the product.  As a result, clearance doesn't come earlier than summer. Marketing will usually want to create a buzz for which you need surprise.

A subscription business model would allow for more freedom because the iterative development nature is part of what you get with the subscription, without any guarantee of what you get exactly out of that development.  But I'm sure you guys have heard how Autodesk M&E is doing with the subs?  Agile development may help too because developers always end with a usable product after a time (at least, that's what Agile promises)

If you have such a urge of knowing what's going on with our release development, we have a Cinema 4D beta program in place.   Beta users enlist in testing and sharing feedback on our next releases' features on the next release. I'm unsure who you need to approach, but I think Hrvoje is a good start... :)

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bobc4d    83
20 hours ago, JFyelle said:

Maybe you'll appreciate a metaphor.  

Once I phoned my girlfriend and told her I would offer her a bouquet, then showed up to her place with nothing, saying it was too late but I will bring some next time.  Today, My butt knows that I'm supposed to shut up and just show up with flowers.

We can't talk about what is in the work because of a legal disposition called revenue recognition.  In a nutshell, talking about what we are attempting to release may (will) qualify as false advertisement if we ever miss the scope or date.  Corporations avoid being sued by imposing secrecy on future plans until there are no more risk (ie, guaranteed feature delivery).

Our feature and benefits statement tends to be issued around SIGGRAPH: that's the time you can hope to hear more about our next release.  Remaining silent isn't fun for us.  you can bet the moment we can talk safely about the cool stuff we're doing, we will.  Until then, we can't confirm or deny we are working on a nodal system.

I explained why we can't talk and when you will know more.  
It's hardly a blog article, but that's as open as it gets... for now. :)

couldn't you use general/broad terms about what is in an upcoming release?  I mean dangle a carrot in front of us. 

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JFyelle    20
55 minutes ago, bobc4d said:

couldn't you use general/broad terms about what is in an upcoming release?  I mean dangle a carrot in front of us. 

mesdames et messieurs :
giphy.gif

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Cutman    125
On 08/03/2017 at 3:34 AM, JFyelle said:

Maybe you'll appreciate a metaphor.  

Once I phoned my girlfriend and told her I would offer her a bouquet, then showed up to her place with nothing, saying it was too late but I will bring some next time.  Today, My butt knows that I'm supposed to shut up and just show up with flowers.

We can't talk about what is in the work because of a legal disposition called revenue recognition.  In a nutshell, talking about what we are attempting to release may (will) qualify as false advertisement if we ever miss the scope or date.  Corporations avoid being sued by imposing secrecy on future plans until there are no more risk (ie, guaranteed feature delivery).

Our feature and benefits statement tends to be issued around SIGGRAPH: that's the time you can hope to hear more about our next release.  Remaining silent isn't fun for us.  you can bet the moment we can talk safely about the cool stuff we're doing, we will.  Until then, we can't confirm or deny we are working on a nodal system.

I explained why we can't talk and when you will know more.  
It's hardly a blog article, but that's as open as it gets... for now. :)

I think you've, possibly, inadvertently shown that MAXON's public position of saying they want to be more open is not the same as the private position.

After the furore after the release of R17, the limpest of C4D releases, there was a stated intent that MAXON would provide users more information about what they have planned for C4D and improve communications, hence the ridiculous Blog was started to give a long view of what is coming down the pipe. There was hope that we would get some answers to when MAXON will sort the abysmal object handling out and give an indication that our concerns are actively being worked on. The Blog is nothing more than dressed up Corporate PR and not what users wanted. Let's wait and see how the Labs turns out but, personally, I don't see this being any more than a superficial half hearted endeavour given the choicee of examples it launched with.

You might sneer at Autodesk's Subs but they have the advantage of easily changing course and if they decided to substantially drop the cost of Subs or even go back to more affordable paid updates, they could massively impact C4D overnight if they so decided. Maya has acquired some great tools and AD have the advantage of already shipping  superior technology from the viewport, to object handling, to physics/cloth and fluids things that will take MAXON the next decade to catch up to at the current glacial development speed. Showing Extrudifier doesn't really compare favourably with architectural changes AD say they're making to Maya by combining MASH and Bifrost. Not in the same ballpark.

It's pretty clear to me that the rewrite of the 'core' was not the great landmark moment that we convinced ourselves it would be because we've seen absolutely no tangible benefit so far and no signals that is going to change through the official communication. I'm going to be mighty interested to see what is announced in R19 because 3 releases after the core rewrite without the significant architectural bottlenecks being addressed will leave MAXON little room to pass off Extrudifier as the must have feature this year. There's only so many times MAXON can commission a C4D Release video which uses more Houdini, Realflow and Arnold than C4D itself before the user base wakes up and smells the coffee that the C4D that they want is still at least 'several more releases' (MAXON's words) away.

 

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JFyelle    20
2 hours ago, Cutman said:

I think you've, possibly, inadvertently shown that MAXON's public position of saying they want to be more open is not the same as the private position.

After the furore after the release of R17, the limpest of C4D releases, there was a stated intent that MAXON would provide users more information about what they have planned for C4D and improve communications, hence the ridiculous Blog was started to give a long view of what is coming down the pipe. There was hope that we would get some answers to when MAXON will sort the abysmal object handling out and give an indication that our concerns are actively being worked on. The Blog is nothing more than dressed up Corporate PR and not what users wanted. Let's wait and see how the Labs turns out but, personally, I don't see this being any more than a superficial half hearted endeavour given the choicee of examples it launched with.

You might sneer at Autodesk's Subs but they have the advantage of easily changing course and if they decided to substantially drop the cost of Subs or even go back to more affordable paid updates, they could massively impact C4D overnight if they so decided. Maya has acquired some great tools and AD have the advantage of already shipping  superior technology from the viewport, to object handling, to physics/cloth and fluids things that will take MAXON the next decade to catch up to at the current glacial development speed. Showing Extrudifier doesn't really compare favourably with architectural changes AD say they're making to Maya by combining MASH and Bifrost. Not in the same ballpark.

It's pretty clear to me that the rewrite of the 'core' was not the great landmark moment that we convinced ourselves it would be because we've seen absolutely no tangible benefit so far and no signals that is going to change through the official communication. I'm going to be mighty interested to see what is announced in R19 because 3 releases after the core rewrite without the significant architectural bottlenecks being addressed will leave MAXON little room to pass off Extrudifier as the must have feature this year. There's only so many times MAXON can commission a C4D Release video which uses more Houdini, Realflow and Arnold than C4D itself before the user base wakes up and smells the coffee that the C4D that they want is still at least 'several more releases' (MAXON's words) away.

 

Hello Cutman,

Rewriting the core of a 25 years old product like Cinema 4D isn't a ride in the park.  It's a huge undertaking and has enormous strategical value.  You shouldn't confuse openness and transparency.   I am sure you understand we won't say more about our most daring project until we decide too.  We have very good reasons to do so.  Will you please respect that? I'll appreciate. 

I'm sorry you don't like our blog.  It's one of the rare places where our low-key upper management engages directly with users.  They deal with the high level direction of the product, so, of course, it'll be reflected in the articles they write.  Perhaps you were hoping for a developer diary? Many of our development team are present on forums such as this one and can be engaged with directly.  Adopting a friendly attitude couldn't hurt though... 

Anyhow, wasn't this thread about MAXON Labs?  So back on topic, the Extrudifier was coded in Python and if you look at the size of the project, it didn't took long to Edd.  I don't understand at all how sharing a light weight, fun and useful tool implemented using the existing R18 public API, has anything to do with Maya and MASH, our core rewrite, or what's to come on R19.  Neither should you.  MAXON Labs is a platform reaching out to our community.   Our developers don't spend time from their C4D development schedule for MAXON labs, we just happen to have a lot of experiments and stuff to share.  We thought you'd like... So far it seems most do.  It has little to do with our product strategy.  

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3D-Pangel    173
6 hours ago, Cutman said:

I'm going to be mighty interested to see what is announced in R19 because 3 releases after the core rewrite without the significant architectural bottlenecks being addressed will leave MAXON little room to pass off Extrudifier as the must have feature this year. 

Me thinks you are over-reacting there.  While it is true you can draw an infinite number of lines through a single point, you really are taking a huge logical leap extrapolating a small python plugin to a major R19 release feature....unless of course you just wanted to make a cynical point to an otherwise very accommodating and patient MAXON representative.  

So I will take a logical leap:  You have lost patience with MAXON, you will not wait for R19 and will be jumping to Maya and Houdini very soon.  In fact, you can't wait to get to this promised land of graphical delights where the features are always new, cutting edge and rock solid.  It is a magical place filled with contented users where the only limitations to your creativity are found in your own skills and not in the software.  Autodesk and Side Effects freely discuss new features years ahead of their release dates and adopt every user suggestion or fix every user bug right away because they have legions of dedicated coders working globally 24 hours a day.  

Yes...it is a happy place where there are no complaints or frustrations.  So why aren't you there yet?

22 hours ago, JFyelle said:

Because we have pretty high quality standards, we tend to work on a feature's design and identify workflow improvements until very late in our cycle.  Then, a finished feature doesn't necessarily means it will goes in a specific release.   The release content itself is decided late when it is possible for our sales and marketing people to understand what they can put in the product.  As a result, clearance doesn't come earlier than summer. Marketing will usually want to create a buzz for which you need surprise.

A subscription business model would allow for more freedom because the iterative development nature is part of what you get with the subscription, without any guarantee of what you get exactly out of that development.  But I'm sure you guys have heard how Autodesk M&E is doing with the subs?  Agile development may help too because developers always end with a usable product after a time (at least, that's what Agile promises)

If you have such a urge of knowing what's going on with our release development, we have a Cinema 4D beta program in place.   Beta users enlist in testing and sharing feedback on our next releases' features on the next release. I'm unsure who you need to approach, but I think Hrvoje is a good start... :)

Ahhh...the curse of quality!  It takes time.  So what you are saying is no early Christmas this year!  Well...can't blame me for trying.  And as far as subscriptions go....NOOOOO!!!!!  I will be happy with waiting.

I would love to be on the beta team, but that privilege requires more time and dedication than I am willing to give it right now (this is a beloved hobby for me, but I do have a day job...plus a family....plus a wife...home....dog....kids...you get the idea).  Maybe when I retire (ahh...that would be fun).

Thanks again,

Dave 

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Greatszalam    69

We've already seen neat things from the new core like the Voronoi Fracture object. From that alone, I am excited for what the future will bring us. :) 

I wish I had the time to commit to being a MAXON beta tester, but one can only dedicate so much time to beta testing and I'm at capacity with the folks I'm already doing that for.

Anyway, MAXON Labs!

Has anyone had a chance to try the Coons Mesh out in any sort of real-world project? It looks extremely useful, but I haven't had a project to use it on yet.

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bobc4d    83
5 hours ago, JFyelle said:

Hello Cutman,

Anyhow, wasn't this thread about MAXON Labs?  So back on topic, the Extrudifier was coded in Python and if you look at the size of the project, it didn't took long to Edd.  I don't understand at all how sharing a light weight, fun and useful tool implemented using the existing R18 public API, has anything to do with Maya and MASH, our core rewrite, or what's to come on R19.  Neither should you.  MAXON Labs is a platform reaching out to our community.   Our developers don't spend time from their C4D development schedule for MAXON labs, we just happen to have a lot of experiments and stuff to share.  We thought you'd like... So far it seems most do.  It has little to do with our product strategy.  

that is a nifty bit of code and so small too.  MAXON Labs is far out and appreciated.

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3D-Pangel    173

I see so many possibilities with Extrudifier....but has anyone figured out how to limit this to a selection rather than a whole object?  Or am I just missing something basic and obvious?

I presume that I could use the split commands to make separate objects, but that is just ugly.

Ideally, if I had the full resources of the MAXON development team at my disposal, then this is what I would hope for:

  • Works as a non-destructive modifier object - which it does now (though  I am not sure how to add it to the menu).
  • Above Seed is a window where you can drag you selection tag.  All settings below apply to that selection tag.  If no selection tag is provided, the whole object is being modified.
  • As soon as you add a selection tag, the controls for seed all the way down to"Inner movement" get repeated under a new collapsible menu with yet another selection tag window at the top.  The process continues to repeat.
  • The modifier works equally well on ngons as well as polygons.  Yes...that would be very tough to do...but then again I have all the resources of MAXON at my disposal. 
  • You can auto-fillet or chamfer each inner or outer square (check box for both).
  • You can apply a different texture to each level.
  • ...and I am sure I could think of a few more, but its late and I am tired.

Dave

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Icecaveman    66

I was delighted with R18...and with few exceptions I recall it was very enthusiastically received across the c4d community. I view MLab as a nice surprise, and am particularly intrigued with the Coon Patch tool.

While I certainly wish the blog was more substantive and have found that quite underwhelming, I'm excited about the current state of c4d and its future.

It's a bit hard for me to understand where Cutman is coming from and this isn't the first time.

 

 

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Cutman    125
15 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

Me thinks you are over-reacting there.  While it is true you can draw an infinite number of lines through a single point, you really are taking a huge logical leap extrapolating a small python plugin to a major R19 release feature....unless of course you just wanted to make a cynical point to an otherwise very accommodating and patient MAXON representative.  

So I will take a logical leap:  You have lost patience with MAXON, you will not wait for R19 and will be jumping to Maya and Houdini very soon.  In fact, you can't wait to get to this promised land of graphical delights where the features are always new, cutting edge and rock solid.  It is a magical place filled with contented users where the only limitations to your creativity are found in your own skills and not in the software.  Autodesk and Side Effects freely discuss new features years ahead of their release dates and adopt every user suggestion or fix every user bug right away because they have legions of dedicated coders working globally 24 hours a day.  

 

I was just using a bit of sarcasm to illustrate that AD have told Maya users their intentions with Mash and bitfrost and what MAXON have shown. Architectural change vs a plugin level feature. I happen to think MAXON can do much better with communication and go beyond the 'several more releases' statement.

I have been learning Houdini for the last 5-6 months and it'll be a fair few more months before I will feel comfortable working on a paid project with it from start to finish. But as a Thinking Particles on acid it is allowing me to think differently how to undertake VFX shots. If you look at the speed of development in Houdini even if MAXON have the ambition to provide an equivalent level it will be a decade before it reaches parity with today's Houdini. R19 could be the time I decide to go all-in with Houdini and invest in Houdini FX.

If C4D had an equivalent to SI's ICE or Houdini's nodal system the whole community could be busy developing and extending C4D. Maybe MAXON have plans for a C4D Engine or C4D Assets but it's strange to see something so low level as Extrudifier written in python if a next-gen nodal programming feature is in the pipeline.

As a curio Extrudifier is fun but as a example of 'Innovation' in C4D it's a bit odd.

 

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Unmastered    47

Speaking of blog post, I like following MAXON UK blog. While it isn't something that talks about the future or new techs and developments, there's always some good tips/advices in there.
http://blog.MAXON.co.uk/

As for the whole comparison between Autodesk and MAXON, don't do it. Aside from big studios, most users are so pissed at Autodesk that they are even considering Blender. Autodesk don't care a little bit for it's clients and while Maya is indeed a good tool, from what I've read, the 2017 version only became usable with the 3rd update, that came out a few weeks ago. But I also recognize that their UV tools and modeling (using as an example of something that Maya wasn't really good at before) are superior to what we have in Cinema 4D right now (at lest from the little time I tried R18).

But at the same time, MAXON already stated that they don't plan on going rental only, which is great (https://www.MAXON.net/en-gb/news/MAXON-blog/article/renting-vs-buying-software-which-is-best-for-you/). It does give the customer more peace of mind on that subject. What do you prefer? Shine tools that take almost a year to work properly, but you don't own your software and are subject to yearly prices increases or a rock solid and good application, which you can own, update and know it'll work, etc?

 

I have high hopes for Cinema 4D. I really like it, but I wish to see MAXON focus on other subjects aside from only motion graphics. While people praise the new Fracture tools and it's indeed solid and easy to use, it's also very basic, but I guess that's what most artists doing motion graphics really need. At least I feel this way when 90%+ of the examples I see with the tool are basically the same.

I really like the Labs approach, as it could create more of a plugin/script community, like 3ds Max has. You may not like 3ds Max, but damn, that software have a free script or super cheap plugin for EVERYTHING. MAXON can't develop ALL areas, so maybe with Labs, MAXON can inspire it's users to step in and fill some specific gaps. The downside of the plugin/script scene is that if the company is lazy, like Autodesk, instead of that being a strength, it may become a handicap. But I don't see MAXON as lazy, so I'm betting on strength.

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