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Cerbera

Harlaxton Manor Arch Viz WiP

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Cerbera    1,108
4 hours ago, spiralstair said:

Hello @Cerbera

firstly congrats again at a technically brilliant model - without sculpting!!! - it's amazing that you can think through edge flow like this.

secondly, an aside - I'm slightly suspicious that there would be a reaper like this in an Elizabethan Manor House - But what the hell , you are remaking it as yours. I only say this because before we talk about the model itself and it's construction, looking and drawing in detail from contemporary sculpture would help enormously in understanding the rules of sculpting in stone IRL. A brief google search for harlaxton shows a couple of intersting pieces.

ok - and thirdly (the meat) - so this is an Elizabethan building built in light (or in the shadow) of Italian baroque. You therefore HAVE to look at Benini. He was the greatest at so many things - in particular the core issues of balance, scale and verisimilitude. Since starting to learn poly modelling I've noticed a lot of similarities to stone carving. Largely to do with the kind of planning required in advance, in stone there is also a kind of edge flow to consider. Look at Benini and the ways in which he would incorporate the shape of the body with the overall shape of the sculpture. There are simple cues like the way in which the hand stands apart from the sleeve (which in the baroque would be seamlessly interwoven). Likewise the biggest (literally the biggest) feature of this model is and should be the cloth. The folds, the creases the flows. Benini made solid rock look like it was blowing in a gale and gave it a sense of lightness which is paradoxical with its heaviness. Meanwhile his sculptures still stand beautifully several hundred years later. 

So my main comment here is to let the cloth (the biggest part) tell most of the story. And since you are in the gothic mode think about how in gothic horror and now-gothic horror the scene and the setup tell more about the imminent mood of what will happen than any dialogue or action. In the neo-gothic mode I think a lot about the film susperia and how you always know what's about to happen based on the patterns in the wall paper (as well as the music and the pace of cutting)

so I don't think you need to open up marvellous designer - but I do think that the flow of the cloth should say a lot more about the Atmos of the scene and the figure than it currently does.

im breaking the fourthwall to state that I generally assume (with love)  that at least 50% of c4d cafe members previously painted games workshop models (I did and i use it as a mental reference throughout most of the c4d work I do) just look at a really good GW model to see how the baroque tropes can be used to emphasise drama. 

Forget the eyes being the punctum of the model - it's a lie, in sculpture it's all in the cloth and jaw line. (and you are winning with the jaw line) 

keep up the great work CBR !!!

Thanks Spiral for your comprehensive insights there - I am learning a lot from you lately :)

I will improve the cloth, lose the eyes, and move limbs in so they are part of the main body I think - it's all good points.

Also thanks to @DanLSK, @VECTOR,  @bobc4d@ninjad who have convinced me no eyes is better :)

CBR 

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Greatszalam    72
16 hours ago, spiralstair said:

Hello @Cerbera

...

ok - and thirdly (the meat) - so this is an Elizabethan building built in light (or in the shadow) of Italian baroque. You therefore HAVE to look at Benini. He was the greatest at so many things - in particular the core issues of balance, scale and verisimilitude. Since starting to learn poly modelling I've noticed a lot of similarities to stone carving. Largely to do with the kind of planning required in advance, in stone there is also a kind of edge flow to consider. Look at Benini and the ways in which he would incorporate the shape of the body with the overall shape of the sculpture. There are simple cues like the way in which the hand stands apart from the sleeve (which in the baroque would be seamlessly interwoven). Likewise the biggest (literally the biggest) feature of this model is and should be the cloth. The folds, the creases the flows. Benini made solid rock look like it was blowing in a gale and gave it a sense of lightness which is paradoxical with its heaviness. Meanwhile his sculptures still stand beautifully several hundred years later. 

So my main comment here is to let the cloth (the biggest part) tell most of the story.

...

Freaking fantastic post.

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spiralstair    23
15 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Thanks Spiral for your comprehensive insights there - I am learning a lot from you lately :)

The feeling is certainly mutual.

I think learning is what this forum is all about and I should predicate any further comments by saying I have something of a rep among my students for being tough in my feedback, which can sometimes be read as being negative, but on the contrary my criticism - here and in other learning environments - is fuelled with respect for what you are doing and sharing here, and I tend to think that simple thumbs up support - while addictive and flattering on these kinds of forums - is not particularly useful in the long run. Because very little critical learning takes place. 

I feel like a problem which is visible in your approach to drawing some of these sculptures is that the process of modelling asks us to resort to known routines and forms (amazing that the core of 3D is still based on platonic forms that we call primitives). There is little that I take more seriously than drawing and finding a line. You are exceptionally good at this with poly-modelling. The scull alone is evidence that you can read 3D space in highly complex ways. However there is a basic fault with the way we are taught to draw from a young age, which involves following a system to draw a certain kind of object, the best example of which is a face. I fume, FUME with rage when I see nursery teachers telling my daughter how to draw stick men -  when she had previously been drawing things in a far more liberal way. 

Someone on the forum that I want to mention is @Rectro who really talks brilliantly about anatomy and how to approach a drawing as complex as a human form. Yet, this advice must also be taken with the knowledge that at a certain point you should be able to draw anything with the same basic tool kit, of breaking down objects into sections and looking for the core lines. So where an anatomical knowledge of the face is invaluable in understanding bone and muscle structure, you should also allow yourself the freedom to stand back and apply a similar set of rules to any organic matter, without first knowing it's anatomical makeup. To think about weight distribution, balance, proportion etc. 

We get wrapped up in digital tools like symmetry, which are extremely useful, but also limit the way in which a form can be described. As is the core problem with platonic forms and why philosophy and art has spent 2000 years+ trying to move away from this form of representation. 

So, in conclusion, when you are drawing a figure the face is important, only because we are taught to recognise faces from a young age, but to move beyond this and to understand how a body relates to the face and the ground it is crucial to see it as a whole and therefore to apply the same kind of fastidiousness to the rolls of cloth than you wold to an eye socket. While this is all well and good for 'physically accurate drawing/modelling', many C4d users come in from the perspective of Pixar-esque characters, with far less physical complexity. Which is a totally valid approach, however I have never met a good character animator who doesn't also have a core understanding of other modes of drawing.    

Enormous Respect CBR !!!

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Monstrphil    13

FANTASTIC!!!! To solidify your decision-if you look to the Masters (Durer, Dore......as well as others from their time) none of their death figures have eyes. Somewhere I read that the eyeless sockets made the newly deceased gaze upon the vast blackness of the beyond. Here is a pic to illustrate.

Again-truly stunning........all of it.

vengeance-c4d.jpg

@spiralstair - Fourth Wall Broken. May the Emperor grant you clemency for your impertinence!

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