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Cinema 4D R19 discussion!


3D-Pangel

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30 minutes ago, hvanderwegen said:

Seems to me that if MAXON is integrating Prorender in the next version, NOT integrating this with material nodes from the very start would be rather odd. It wouldn't make sense, would it? It is THE opportunity to implement material nodes - even though those might not work with the old internal renderer.

Agreed, if you're going to the trouble of creating a new render engine then it would be THE time to bring a nodal material system.

If a new renderer ships with the old material system then that would raise even more questions.

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On 6/26/2017 at 3:51 PM, Fastbee said:

MAXON switching to a system where you don't have to update every year for your copy of C4D to not become worthless would be great from my perspective.  Their list of updates per release have been so ho hum that I could save a lot of money by skipping several releases and then pay $650 to upgrade.  This would be bad for MAXON as so many people would do this, they would lose a ton of money.  C4D has not have a I need it or really want it update for a long time.  They know this, and are keeping the you must update every year policy because of it.  There would be some money in the large number of people that might upgrade from really old versions to the newest one for $650.  They would also be able to keep some users from switching to other programs because they are tired of paying $650 per year for features they will never use.  To know if it would be overall positive or negative cash flow would be hard to determine.  I could be wrong.  Maybe they make more money by changing their upgrade policy.

MAXON may not realize (yet) that there upgrade policy is a double edged sword.  On the plus side it holds us captive because the cost of opting out of any upgrade can be very high if you decide to upgrade later. If you miss more than two releases than you might as well purchase a whole new license.  So this is a plus for MAXON as it protects their annual revenue should they decide to go light on any individual upgrade.  We keep upgrading each year because it is cheaper in the long run. Plus we keep hoping that the next release will be "the big one".

The downside for MAXON (that they better start to embrace) is that should your patience finally wear out because the current upgrade is weak is that when you opt of upgrading, that due to the higher costs of upgrading later that you are in fact deciding to leave C4D for good.

Now I would imagine that the percentage of users who opt of any upgrade is not enough yet to threaten MAXON's earnings....in fact, I think they are making more money than ever.  So MAXON has everything going in their favor.  We are a captive user-base and MAXON can continue to support their development at a pace that makes financial sense for them (if anything MAXON is lead by some pretty astute business people).

But here is the risk that MAXON may be missing because it involves human nature rather than profits or features: people don't like to feel trapped.  They will put up with it but ultimately it hits a tipping point if they have had enough of paying more for the MSA than what they feel the upgrades are worth (this is especially true of Studio owners). Now we have been in this situation since R14 and have heard a slew of promises about the new core but really not seeing those promises fulfilled.  Plus the more you rely on plugins or other programs to fill in the gaps of C4D, the less dependent you become on C4D upgrades.  So what may happen is that there could be a growing and hidden sentiment of users finally saying "enough" should MAXON put forth yet another weak release. They will be vocal, angry and in-turn cause others on-the-fence about upgrading to opt out as well.  As the choir of angry voices grow, then the movement to opt out gains momentum. It will come unannounced and happen all at once.  Think how Brexit caught the U.K. political elite by surprise.....same forces at work.  It's just basic human nature: fundamentally, we don't like to be held captive and when they rebel, it happens all at once.  

So apart from improving C4D at a faster pace (which probably won't happen because it just takes time to make stable software), they need to give us a reason to be patient.   They need to be more open about communicating what future updates may contain.  They don't even need to peg a future feature to a future release.  The Bodypaint beta shows a softening on this, but that was after a decade of complaints.  Honestly, in today's culture that level of patience is going away so MAXON has to become more open on all areas of the program because once people leave, chances are they are not coming back.

Dave

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3 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

MAXON may not realize (yet) that there upgrade policy is a double edged sword.  On the plus side it holds us captive because the cost of opting out of any upgrade can be very high if you decide to upg

 Anyone who has r15 is no better off than a owner of other major brands for cross grade discount which I think is very, very wrong, they have missed  that one as I think as there are allot of old users who are pushed out of the upgrade scheme . 

If someone wishes to move out the upgrade loop in hope that  they will one day return, a studio user would have to wait at least 6 years to make it worth while because to cross grade is £2,940 inc vat where as a MSA is £540 per year inc vat which also includes cinevercity.  Not even 5 years of a MSA would pay for a cross grade. In reality at this time only r12 users and older would get a deal out of it, this is a area MAXON needs to look at.

I have other software thats I count on for C4D weaker areas, and there is only so long I will keep paying a MSA until I see my other software being used much less.  I cant see Vray being replaced by Pro renderer too soon, or Unfold3D for its Uv tools, or Zbrush for its sculpting, but I do hold hope that Bodypaint may exceed Zbrush in other ways that it lacks, Painting.  C4D cloth will not replace Marvelous Designer, and Its Modeling tools wont replace MODOs, but if it comes close in some of these areas in that for some projects I can say to myself, "I can to it in C4D and get the same results in a close time frame" then my MSA is worth it. I dont expect C4D to ever be as great  as my separate collectively expensive software alternitives, but it needs to come much closer to warrant over a 3k piece of software. 

I will be a harder customer to please as I dont use just C4D alone, this is why I need to see some serious speed increases, refined current tools, and advancements in its Modelling methods, these are things that everyone benefits from, and hope some of these things are given attention in r19.

 

Dan

 

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I would have to agree here with 3D-Pangel. I am more of a 3d generalist, and 3d is only a small part of my work. I'd say I use 3d software 85% for personal work, and 10-20% for paid jobs - as part of the overall workflow. My 3d experience goes back to 1986 on the Amiga (Sculpt-Animate 4D), and I worked with most 3d apps throughout the years.

I first encountered Cinema4D on the Amiga, and loved it. I got a license, and continued to use it when I got my first Windows machine.

But Cinema4D's upkeep was just too much to bear at some point for me. I have an older Studio version, with many addons, and paid through the nose for that. The updates kept getting less interesting, and more expensive - until the breaking point where I had to make a decision. The division of features between the various editions made no sense to me either - so downgrading wasn't an option either.  And yes, I did feel somewhat held captive by MAXON's update terms when they introduced stricter rules.

I then decided (years ago) to try Blender, and while it was different at first, I can now work faster than I ever was able to in C4D.

But it isn't the fact that Blender has a pretty good feature set in comparison (and its rocket speed development in the past few years) that keeps me in the Blender camp: it's mainly the freedom I felt after leaving commercial 3d apps. There's none of the financial stress involved, of course (and I support the Blender Foundation financially), but for me it is the openness of development/road-maps, the fact I can test new features as they are being worked on, the fact the main developers personally involve themselves in helping users (where it makes sense). And that I can download the source, and build my own version.

In short, I feel entirely FREE since I switched to Blender. When a new version of Blender is released, it feels like Christmas to me: a lot of cool new things to play with every time, and for 'free'. While with Cinema4d, when a new version was released, I'd feel stressed out, because I'd have to check my financial situation whether I'd be able to afford it, and whether I'd WANT to afford it. And MAXON, as a company, is pretty tight-lipped as well, which I feel is a very old-fashioned manner of doing business nowadays. Just compare the guys behind Unreal, 3DCoat, or Substance Painter, and how they deal with their customer base.

After I bit the bullet, and dropped Cinema4D in my workflow, I felt a big sense of relief. I am still interested in C4D's development, and I still do download the trial versions to test drive out of pure interest.

Of course, these are just my personal observations.

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5 minutes ago, hvanderwegen said:

But Cinema4D's upkeep was just too much to bear at some point for me. I have an older Studio version, with many addons, and paid through the nose for that. The updates kept getting less interesting, and more expensive - until the breaking point where I had to make a decision. The division of features between the various editions made no sense to me either - so downgrading wasn't an option either.  And yes, I did feel somewhat held captive by MAXON's update terms when they introduced stricter rules.

I think MAXON are missing this one, and should show some loyalty to their old customers offering them a much better deal on a crossgrade.  I know a 3D artist who actually recommended C4D to me years ago, he has stayed on v10, got the extra moduals, and still uses it to this day, he is happy for what he is doing.  It sounds like you got Blender down which is cool, its always good to have other options.  I started on the Amiga 500, 1200, but for 2d and for music production, still got it stored away.::):

 

Dan

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Nice to read other people having similar 3D journeys beginning on the Amiga.

I've done what @hvanderwegen has done and simply moved to a different application, Houdini. It seemed like the positive thing to do, instead of waiting indefinitely for MAXON's genius developers to deliver I'm focussed on learning Houdini.

I'm continually impressed by the development of Blender, if it ever got some decent parametric mograph tools it would pull the rug from under C$D's feet. It's only a matter of time before Blender cruises past C$D in development. I understand a nodal workflow is in development so this could be an extremely attractive application in a year or two.

It'll only be through people dropping C$D and moving on that things will change in MAXON HQ, if enough people move on and their profits drop they will be forced to respond. Moaning on a forum has got the community very little if you count the useless blog as progress.

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1 hour ago, Cutman said:

Moaning on a forum has got the community very little if you count the useless blog as progress.

In my opinion the blog was only ever a short term solution to try and take the heat of themselves after the lack lustre R17 and to buy MAXON some time until R18 was launched.

I agree, Blender is looking good these days and I gather there's a 3rd party alternative gui that makes it much more accessible.

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16 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

In my opinion the blog was only ever a short term solution to try and take the heat of themselves after the lack lustre R17 and to buy MAXON some time until R18 was launched.

I agree, Blender is looking good these days and I gather there's a 3rd party alternative gui that makes it much more accessible.

Any more information on that 3rd party GUI?

To me a logical interface is crucial and probably second only to stability and tools working as expected that keep me with C4D.  Blenders growing capability and low cost (if I was an active user I would support the foundation) are attractive but I can't get past the interface.

 

Dave

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17 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

In my opinion the blog was only ever a short term solution to try and take the heat of themselves after the lack lustre R17 and to buy MAXON some time until R18 was launched.

Actually I came to a different conclusion, the MAXON Blog is the best they can do because they haven't got anything to talk about, they may have big plans but they only began developing these plans a year or so ago and they simply don't have anything to show or discuss that will be released any time soon. That's why R19 will again be yet another filler year, they've bought up tons of plugins to fill out releases in the past and they appear to have done the same with ProRender. "Look a nice new render engine no one asked for, just try and ignore everything else that dates back to the last century..."

My Vimeo stream used to be filled with C$D artists and studios and now it's almost entirely filled with those same artists sharing Houdini examples of work and tutorials. The motion graphics 'mindshare' is moving from C$D to Houdini quicker than MAXON can show any semblance of progress. Once the mindshare moves so will the customers especially as the younger artists can buy into the Houdini eco system for a fraction of a C$D Studio license and get their experience and a decent showreel.

 

 

 

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i dont really participate in these circle shirks, but this is just plain crazy. C4d doesn't always deliver what i want, but as you've noticed r10 and other old version still work great and do enough stuff, this just goes to show how great it is, that you are still using a piece of software that is nearly 10 years old. 

 

viewport performance has consistently improved from version to version. r15 was a massive jump. R17, while might've lacked "fun" features, had tokes and takes. Those 2 features have easily saved me $700 worth of time and then some. I loved r17! 

 

r18 for example i still haven't really completely covered because, most of the new features are kinda project specific. 

 

so my point is: while for hobbyists is might suck with the price tag, and it would be nice if they had an indie version. For professionals it is always more than worth the price. 

 

re:sidegrades: you can rent to own with cinema4D. and it actually turns out cheaper than buying and then paying MSA. so i don't get what people are complaining about. 

 

No one application can do everything. Other apps may have useful features, but none are as easy for sceen set up and proceduralism as cinema4D. houdinis nodes can do amazing stuff, but the object managers drag and drop and childer and parent thing is just amazing. Try using maya's outliner for organizing a scene with many objects.. god.. its torture. 

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1 hour ago, Cutman said:

Actually I came to a different conclusion, the MAXON Blog is the best they can do because they haven't got anything to talk about, they may have big plans but they only began developing these plans a year or so ago and they simply don't have anything to show or discuss that will be released any time soon. That's why R19 will again be yet another filler year, they've bought up tons of plugins to fill out releases in the past and they appear to have done the same with ProRender. "Look a nice new render engine no one asked for, just try and ignore everything else that dates back to the last century..."

My Vimeo stream used to be filled with C$D artists and studios and now it's almost entirely filled with those same artists sharing Houdini examples of work and tutorials. The motion graphics 'mindshare' is moving from C$D to Houdini quicker than MAXON can show any semblance of progress. Once the mindshare moves so will the customers especially as the younger artists can buy into the Houdini eco system for a fraction of a C$D Studio license and get their experience and a decent showreel.

 

 

 

Apples and oranges. People use C4D because of its ease of use and powerful mograph tools. And its aimed towards generalists and people working as freelancers / broadcast and advertising industry. Neither Houdini or Blender has simplicity or mograph.

 

A decent showreel means nothing when you need to resolve problems without looking over google every two steps. What is so great or clever in learning math and programming to work with a beast of an app that can do millions of particles, destroy landmarks and create custom tools to replicate Maya, Modo and Softimage if I can just buy C4D / x-particles and make my clients happy?

 

In twenty years working in advertising / broadcast I have never needed to destroy a 3d building. But, acryllic text flying for a sports channel? yes. Earth made of squares with lines orbiting around it for a news channel? yes. Will the new render engine that no one asked for is gonna help me doing that faster and efficiently? I hope so.

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Point is that with Houdini you have no limits, you do not need math or programming to do things like acrylic text flying for sports channel, but if you need some crazy stuff you will realize that only limitation is your knowledge and imagination, and that is what I like about it ... Also your client will.  What you see as limitation I see as advantage. It is better  long term investment in my opinion. If I am motiongraph and Vfx newbie I would not look anywhere else but Houdini. As I said on MODO forum, I do think that using multiple apps is future, not just sticking to one app. And that is where pricing became even more important factor.

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