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3D-Pangel

Cinema 4D R19 discussion!

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2 minutes ago, virtualzapp said:

Clock is ticking, we shall know soon the result and as usual some people will be happy, some others will not ;o)

 

Pretty much is the same every year. :D 


| MAXON Quality Assurance Specialist | 3D Asset Creator | C4D Cafe Manager |

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I've always been happy every year, but I think that's just because I'm a very optimistic person. lol

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On 2017-6-24 at 11:09 PM, flippyfloop said:

I'd love an update to the Boole operation. Something inline with Fusion 360 or Modo's mesh fusion, with ability to bevel.

Faster viewport and able to handle way larger scenes.

UV update would be good but lots of other apps do this well so not that important to me anyway.

You can stack booleans and put a bevel deformer at the top of the group to get some bevels. Cineversity has a bool tool that makes this a little easier. Its not as good as the other tools you mentioned - but its a start. 

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13 hours ago, Fastbee said:

Adding a well working plugin for C4D from any render engine is a huge amount of work that takes a huge amount of time.  With them adding support for ProRender I'd expect there to not be much more because of the huge amount of time making a plugin for a render engine takes.  I see adding support for ProRender and a bad move for many reasons.  1) C4D had a ton of render engine available for use already.  Of all the 3D programs out there C4D might have the most render engine plugins available.  Yet another plugin is not what C4D needs.  2) ProRender looks slow and new.  There is so much work that goes into making a good render engine having a new one is probably bad unless they have a huge team working very efficiently on it.  3) The time wasted on adding support to ProRender could have been used adding features people would actually want and use.

Other things that will probably be added is real time painting preview in bodypaint and some tools being multi core.  It probably won't be integrated well with steady stroke and other features that would make people actually use it, so again a waste of time.  I'm sure most have switched to useing 3DCoat, zbrush, or substance painter at this point anyway.  If they do have things like steady stroke in there it will be a huge feature for me.

For the new core I would hope it means at least all tools would use multiple cores and everything would run faster.  At the very least I'd hope the bool tool would use multiple cores.  To help answer 3D-Pangel's initial question in the past we might have seen the mograph tool use multiple cores, a faster startup of c4d, and some other tools using multiple cores as a partial integration of the new core.  They probably have been working on it for a long time so this for me will be the most interesting thing.  Seeing how much they actually get done next year with that crew not having to spend so much time on the core will be more interesting.

MAXON switching to a system where you don't have to update every year for your copy of C4D to not become worthless would be great from my perspective.  Their list of updates per release have been so ho hum that I could save a lot of money by skipping several releases and then pay $650 to upgrade.  This would be bad for MAXON as so many people would do this, they would lose a ton of money.  C4D has not have a I need it or really want it update for a long time.  They know this, and are keeping the you must update every year policy because of it.  There would be some money in the large number of people that might upgrade from really old versions to the newest one for $650.  They would also be able to keep some users from switching to other programs because they are tired of paying $650 per year for features they will never use.  To know if it would be overall positive or negative cash flow would be hard to determine.  I could be wrong.  Maybe they make more money by changing their upgrade policy.

That is the way I see things.  I could be wrong.  If they have anything like VR or something I'd be really surprised.

There's absolutely no point waiting for MAXON to deliver and keep paying the M$A. Stop paying the M$A and wait until MAXON deliver the performance upgrades. Learn Houdini in the meantime.

If R19 is simply yet another render engine for C4D plus a handful of random feature improvements what more evidence would anyone need to know any meaningful performance improvement will still be years and years away?

C$D is a money pit, keep throwing money at it year after year in the hope next year will be the promised land, but the promised land never arrives. Their business models relies upon saps keep expecting the promised land despite all the evidence to the contrary and keeping the money taps open. The new core was delivered in R16 that's 3 releases to date with the new core and what have users of C$D got to show for it?

My guess, they'll have ProRender and a new nodal shading system and make a big effing thing about it, the fanboys and the betatesters will be doing backflips on the forums saying it's the best thing since sliced bread. The reality will be is that it'll be work in progress and need at least another 2 years of releases to make it feature competitive with solutions already available.

If you're serious about high end Mograph and VFX then you'd be daft not to learn Houdini. There's some very cost effective entry points and there's loads of tutorials now. You'll also find a lot of former C$D users in the Houdini community as they've moved on too. The grass is much greener over here!

 

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1 hour ago, Cutman said:
15 hours ago, Fastbee said:

something I'd be really surprised.

There's absolutely no point waiting for MAXON to deliver and keep paying the M$A. Stop paying the M$A and wait until MAXON deliver the performance upgrades. Learn Houdini in the meantime.

That's just the thing, we only get 2 versions behind and the next version  we have to purchase so there is no waiting for the performance and upgrades as id be in a position where paying for the last two version and add a msa which is no cheaper for waiting in fact it's way more expensive than paying a yearly msa.  If 3 versions behind your be buying a new licence as a cross grade with no additional  discount being cross grading from a MAXON product.   For me as a Studio user I need to stick with C4d or go a rent out Maya which is not a choice for me let alone learning it.

 

Dan 

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3 hours ago, Cutman said:

My guess, they'll have ProRender and a new nodal shading system and make a big effing thing about it,

You're the first person I've heard make the guess that a nodal material system is coming in R19. If it did, that would be fantastic. For a start, it would be great to be able to pipe the same shader into several different channels. It's awful when you've got a complex layer shader built up and you copy shader/paste shader and then you have to make a little change and copy shader/paste shader again EVERY time - especially with the layers in reflectance. 

So, to me, it would be a big deal!

Also, the new renderer is going to be big for me too. At my full-time job, our production machines aren't allowed connect to the internet at all (in fact, they have to be a certain number of feet away from internet ports), so the third-party renderers I'd be interested in are out since they use online licensing. (I know that with Cycles 4D, you can get something where they license through a local C4D license server, but you need to buy 5 [I think] C4D licenses to get that going and we don't have enough C4D artists to set that up.) Anyway, the point is, we can't get third-party renderers yet, but we've got great GPUs just sitting there idle most of the day (unless I'm using Element in After Effects or something).

So, again, (depending on how good ProRender is) this  could be a big deal for us.

If those are the two main features and they come along with a decent slew of other improvements with more things being tied into the new core, I would be happy.

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6 minutes ago, Greatszalam said:

You're the first person I've heard make the guess that a nodal material system is coming in R19. If it did, that would be fantastic. For a start, it would be great to be able to pipe the same shader into several different channels. It's awful when you've got a complex layer shader built up and you copy shader/paste shader and then you have to make a little change and copy shader/paste shader again EVERY time - especially with the layers in reflectance. 

So, to me, it would be a big deal!

Also, the new renderer is going to be big for me too. At my full-time job, our production machines aren't allowed connect to the internet at all (in fact, they have to be a certain number of feet away from internet ports), so the third-party renderers I'd be interested in are out since they use online licensing. (I know that with Cycles 4D, you can get something where they license through a local C4D license server, but you need to buy 5 [I think] C4D licenses to get that going and we don't have enough C4D artists to set that up.) Anyway, the point is, we can't get third-party renderers yet, but we've got great GPUs just sitting there idle most of the day (unless I'm using Element in After Effects or something).

So, again, (depending on how good ProRender is) this  could be a big deal for us.

If those are the two main features and they come along with a decent slew of other improvements with more things being tied into the new core, I would be happy.

Just for your information. Vray for C4D works offline as well and is based on your Cinema 4D serial number.

A nodal system would be great. Especially, if we can use it in Vray as well. Unfortunately I do not think that MAXON will provide that with R19.

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I'm holding onto hope because the last release was good and it would not take a lot for me to love the next release of C4D.  If they do the little extra things with bodypaint to make real time painting useful plus any of the following it could be killer.

- Make the snapping work the way it should have worked when it was first released.  This means being able to set a snap to object and a snap from.  This way we can have two boxes, set one as snap to, the other snap from polygon or point, now easily stack them or snap to the corner, etc.  This would also allow retopo that actually works.  It's a ton of functionality with just a little change to the code.

- VR where all the tools are available in VR.

- If the new core makes it so we don't have to wait 24 hours of prep time for a computer on the farm to get to the frame it needs to be on to start rendering and fixing of the reflection channel not rendering right when using team render in windows.

- I was going to put a huge update to character tools here, but the tools in Houdini looks to good. I'm going to start learning Houdini.  Them adding so much work to character tools looks to be a great step in the right direction.  Hopefully the character animation is fast during render and does not take days to start rendering.

Following Cutman's advice I took a stronger look at Houdini and it looks like they really are kicking some butt on the new features.  Their new character rigging tools look great.  What might take hours to rig in C4D can now be done in Houdini in seconds.  They also say they will continue to improve the character tools with time.  One thing with Houdini is their MSA is really expensive.  $2500 per year for an artist is way more than C4D's $650.  I guess that would be for artists that make over $100k per year?  That is not so bad than.  $200 per year for everyone under $100k seems fair.

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50 minutes ago, Fastbee said:

I was going to put a huge update to character tools here, but the tools in Houdini looks to good. I'm going to start learning Houdini.  Them adding so much work to character tools looks to be a great step in the right direction.  Hopefully the character animation is fast during render and does not take days to start rendering.

The character tools in Houdini do look awesome, and should I ever move from C4D that would be the direction for me.  The main potential I see is in its Biharmonic capturing for its weighting, id like to see at least heat weighting for C4D in which Visible should in theory do the trick but is not producing anything like in MODO, and certainly not close to what Houdini has.  Invisible rigs for deformation looks nice for fast deformation, again MODO has a simplified pose method which C4D could do with.  The muscles in Houdini is awesome, C4D system just dont allow the muscle shaping that I need, I think in Houdini they call it Franking muscles they look like metaballs merging groups of muscles into new forms.  

While id like to get further immersed into more technology, the truth is I dont actually need some of  it right now, but want it, and I always do well to remind myself the difference between Need, and Want, but in either case Im paying for what I consider core essential fixes, and upgrades, and feel modeling, Uv, multi threaded speed enhancements is just that.  I suppose its the case that a road map would be nice to see so I can peer into the future and see they do actually plan to update their character tools with more flexible intuitive technologies.  Until I actually need these additional cool features Im going to invest my time in being better at what I do, and learn things I need to know with what I have at hand.

I think C4D has many features almost hidden, or unknown because they haven't show cased some things very well, and would like to see some areas shown rather than watch a 6 year old video highlighting the feature list  of a release.  The muscle system, NLA just is not shown much of to mention just two.

Dan

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7 hours ago, Greatszalam said:

You're the first person I've heard make the guess that a nodal material system is coming in R19. If it did, that would be fantastic.

 

indeed. the node based material workflow would be really fantastic.
I hope they will implement it very soon.
with the current material editor, it's impossible to work on really complex shaders. the nodal workflow will take it to completely new level.
C4D is amazing software, with the most beautiful user-friendly interface and really powerful tools with intuitive settings.
Only c4d allows us to create truly amazing stuff in really short time. good animations and still frames can be created in every software but in c4d, you don't have to struggle with different tools for weeks or even months.
I Really Love Cinema 4D Because it is truly amazing and node based materials will make it even better than it is now. If a person will meet some bug or some counter-intuitive setting, he will write about this on the forums as we see now.
But If someone really likes everything in his arsenal, he will keep using it and will not write on the forums, how amazing mograph is or something like that. This is why we see more negative feedback than positive.

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