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Cinema 4D R19 discussion!


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19 hours ago, Zmotive said:

The second part of this chaos is that MAXON (over time) has not done a good job of explaining the degree to which their new core has been implemented and what kind of improvements we can expect (or not expect). Goes back to the whole secrecy thing but realistically MAXON almost should not have brought it up to begin with if all they're going to do is say "new core coming" and then say not much else. It just leads to more speculation. And frankly I wouldn't be shocked if that is as intended. 

That was the original intent of the first post on this thread.  Can anyone point out where the core is in action on past releases up to and including R18.  I was hoping Fritz would be able to elaborate more on that because you are right: the tendency is to talk up new capabilities and tools rather than performance improvements to existing tools (other than rendering), so we hear very little.

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Personally I haven't been bothered by Cutman's posts lately nor should anyone be surprised that some people are skeptical of how much stuff is included in any given release. 

You would have to read them to be bothered by them....which I don't as I know where they are going.  Kind of like watching Fox News or CNN....you know where their biases are and therefore you have a tendency not to watch them unless you tend to agree with those biases.  Same with reading Cutman's posts.  His bias is very evident.  Personally, I don't know what made him hold a grudge for so long against MAXON (its been like 3 years since he last upgraded), but I think it is time to move on.  Even Nigel has nice things to say about MAXON from time to time.

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MAXON has a history of doing one substantial feature and then a bunch of pretty minor ones. There's all sorts of secondary discussions that can go with that

One thing which we fail to recognize is that some companies can implode when they start to work on a new core.

Here is the worst case scenario:  There is a drop in new sales once the word gets out that a new core is coming...why buy the old core...wait for the new core.  Of course, nothing goes according to schedule and things take longer than expected.  As the delays mount, no updates are being released because all the focus is on the new core - so again, the revenue stream tightens further.   The market continues to move forward and users are leaving the platform because their patience has run out.  To compensate, there is a constant feature creep to what goes into the new core...which in-turn delays the release of the new core.  What should have taken 2 years now takes 5.  With a hit to revenue, the company is subsisting longer than expected on current cash reserves.  They take out a loan which on paper looks good if they release the new core per the latest revision to the timeline.  Of course that doesn't happen so now cash is really tight as they have to pay off the loan.  No pay raises, no perks.   Developers get tired of working for a company that is living on a tight budget and seek greater fortunes elsewhere.  With a loss of developers, the new core takes longer than anyone every anticipated.  Everything just spirals out of control.  

If you look at Lightwave and a number of smaller players that have since closed shop you may realize that there is some truth to this worst case scenario..

This is what can happen if you don't manage the shift to a new core effectively.   But MAXON has actually navigated these waters quite well (if anything, they are awesome business managers).  Yes, we were all unhappy with R17, but the "Takes" system really does not get the credit it deserves.   Are things going as fast as we would like....well....they never do.  But the company has not imploded.  You are still getting regular updates every year without fail and MAXON is still generating cash and using that cash to grow their software development team.

This is a good sign folks.  I have put a ton on money into C4D and its eco-system of tutorial developers, scripts and plugin developers, texture/shader developers and modelers.  I want them around for the long haul and I am pretty confident that they will be there well into R100...which as Cerbera has accurately predicted will involve a fiber to the brain interface and the realization of the "do what I am thinking" button next to the "make great art" button!

Dave

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CINEMA 4Ds SDK (Software Development Kit) is changing constantly. This has to be done to reflect new functionality and changes under the hood. While we try to keep the SDK as stable as possible, from

That was the original intent of the first post on this thread.  Can anyone point out where the core is in action on past releases up to and including R18.  I was hoping Fritz would be able to elaborat

I remember people complaining before R18, saying it would bring minor updates.. and we got an enhanced knife tool plus fracture and some other goodies. The "handful of random updates" I got every year

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1 hour ago, 3D-Pangel said:

 

You would have to read them to be bothered by them....which I don't as I know where they are going.  Kind of like watching Fox News or CNN....you know where their biases are and therefore you have a tendency not to watch them unless you tend to agree with those biases.  Same with reading Cutman's posts.  His bias is very evident.  Personally, I don't know what made him hold a grudge for so long against MAXON (its been like 3 years since he last upgraded), but I think it is time to move on.  Even Nigel has nice things to say about MAXON from time to time.

 

I have stopped watching the news altogether. and same for Cutman's posts,  I figure if anything really major happens it will interrupt everything. as for features in the past, sure it has been piecemeal  but there have been some very cool things come out: new bevel tool, knife tool (needs some tweaks), takes system, fracture tool just to name a few.  Cinema is still rock solid, doesn't crash very often, if at all (knock wood) , has very busy forums where there are fantastic people to help out and an amazing amount of tutorials.  I am just a hobbyist, yeah I've spent a lot on C4D over the years, but it is my one vice. Is it perfect? No, but it works for me and gives me the escape I need.

Will R19 or 20 or 21 be the one ring to rule them all? 

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2 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

That was the original intent of the first post on this thread.  Can anyone point out where the core is in action on past releases up to and including R18.

MAXON employees have said the Voronoi Fracture tool would have been unworkably slow on the old core. Or something like that. Anyway, that's one thing running on the new core. It's the only thing I can remember specifically, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or two other things are tied in too. 

Gah, all of this speculation is getting me more excited for SIGGRAPH than usual.

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3 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

That was the original intent of the first post on this thread.  Can anyone point out where the core is in action on past releases up to and including R18.  I was hoping Fritz would be able to elaborate more on that ...

You would have to read them to be bothered by them....which I don't as I know where they are going.  Kind of like watching Fox News or CNN....you know where their biases are and therefore you have a tendency not to watch them unless you tend to agree with those biases.  Same with reading Cutman's posts.  His bias is very evident....  

 

One thing which we fail to recognize is that some companies can implode when they start to work on a new core.

Here is the worst case scenario:  ...

If you look at Lightwave and a number of smaller players that have since closed shop you may realize that there is some truth to this worst case scenario..

This is what can happen if you don't manage the shift to a new core effectively.   But MAXON has actually navigated these waters quite well (if anything, they are awesome business managers).  ...

Last point first: I think MAXON is very cautious above all else. And you're right: where that pays off is in keeping their business stable and keeping the product stable. Very few "big highs" or "big lows" as it were. But yeah I for one am not in favor of radical overhauls for their own sake. There has to be a strategic reason and a solid gameplan (like any business). The company I work for is just the opposite of a bunch of regimented Germans, doing stuff by the seat of our pants, and we pay for it as often as it pays off. Heh.

Re Cutman: I guess I never noticed anything too crazy about his posts, perhaps because I'm pretty cynical / jaded myself at times. lol Also perhaps because I've been most active here since the R17 debates (where a lot of people including myself were pretty negative at times). I don't consider him a troll though. I can think of some other well known people (associarted with other developers in other forums) who definitely better define the term "troll" or always negative...  in an arbitrary (almost off-the-wall) way, as opposed to at least making negative comments point in a constructive direction. I don't see Cutman as taking cheap-shots at MAXON for their own sake but it's all a matter of perception.

 

1 hour ago, Greatszalam said:

MAXON employees have said the Voronoi Fracture tool would have been unworkably slow on the old core. Or something like that.

To Pangel's earlier point, would love to find out more. Not sure if you're a MAXON advovate (officially) or what but it would be cool to see a list of existing features, that benefit greatly from / would not be possible without the new core.

 

1 hour ago, bobc4d said:

...Cinema is still rock solid, doesn't crash very often, if at all (knock wood) , has very busy forums where there are fantastic people to help out and an amazing amount of tutorials.  ..

Speaking of which, anyone download service pack 3 today? Any issues / safe to upgrade (Mac)?

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I do find @3D-Pangel's misrepresentation quite funny, Dave has absolutely no idea what version of C$D I'm using. Dave, I have absolutely no duty to not be biased, which is a hilarious thing to say anyway since of course my posts are biased since I'm speaking from my own experience and professional needs. 

Let's take the accusations of 'trolling' by @HSrdelic, I've not posted here for 4 months and in the last week or so posted nothing more than a handful of posts, is that really 'trolling'? I only did so because it's become pretty clear that R19 is not going to deliver many of the features many of us have been waiting years for, instead the headline feature appears to be yet another renderer. I must ask, what's in it for you all to defend the mediocrity in the C$D updates over some years now and lack of development pace to not only bring speed to our workflows but to also replace some very tired features? Even if you only do spinning logos surely you have greater ambition that would be better served with best in class tools or at the very least not having to work with dated features like, cloth, pyrocluster, thinking particles, xpresso, you know stuff that should have been updated years ago new core or no new core. What do you gain from defending this? Is this really 'trolling' to point the deficiencies out or just feedback from a customer that @HSrdelic doesn't like on his forum?

What happens if in 2 or 3 more years if the new core has not resulted in all the old dated toolsets being replaced are you still going to be quite so ready to defend the speed and direction of C$D's development? How long will it be before you have to 'rethink' your future with C$D? Or maybe that's irrelevant to you and you're happy to keep paying the M$A and using dated tools like cloth, TP and Xpresso because your hobby or work doesn't require them.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Unmastered said:

Dave, in this case, come on. Who updates this damn thing with every version of new Cinema 4D? And why would I need to?

Cheers.

Well, you need it if you seeking for help and forget to mention what version you use. You do it because it's a simple rule, but why would you care, it's not your rule it's some stupid forum rule! 

U Render Quality Assurance Specialist

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Folks, let's try and keep it nice, I know this kind of topics can become heated very quickly. If we turn this into bashing we are simply discouraging people who can tell something about future to post

@Cutman

I didn't say you were troll, I said some people could perceive you as such

Regarding C4D version info for members, it helps a lot when someone is assisting you (so it can propose solutions in that scope), or when someone is hiring you etc. Useful in multiple ways, and even though it is a rule it is a "mild" rule.

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13 hours ago, Zmotive said:

To Pangel's earlier point, would love to find out more. Not sure if you're a MAXON advovate (officially) or what but it would be cool to see a list of existing features, that benefit greatly from / would not be possible without the new core.

I'm not an advocate officially or unofficially. I don't even do any beta testing or anything. However, I have shaken the hands of some MAXON employees at NAB and said, "Hello". So there's that.

I too would be interested to see what else is already working with the new core.

And I'm getting amped for SIGGRAPH. They're streaming in 20 days, 3 hours, and 3 minutes!

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