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Cinema 4D R19 discussion!

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2 hours ago, Unmastered said:

I'm past fighting this really. Most studios and most companies I know use Maya, so I have to use it despite it's rental scheme. It's the same with Adobe ... I started using Fusion, I bought Affinity, etc. It's cool and all and it's a option for maybe when I'm full freelance with complete projects as deliverables ... but if I want to collaborate, work in-site, etc, I need to use Adobe as long as the companies are using.

I tried Blender several times. It's a great software, but I don't have fun using, so I actually am more prone to pay for a software that I find fun to work with. So with that in mind, Cinema 4D will only become cheaper than Maya after 3-years. That's why I say it's the most expensive right now. Now ... in 10-years I'll have spent more in Maya for sure, but who knows if I'll be alive or even doing 3D in 10-years.

 

Renting Maya for 3-years:

renting_3years.thumb.png.1f9538b05f077438030ff5fa739b4557.png

 

Renting C4D for 3-years on the 6-month contract:

renting_6months.thumb.png.ade96867558b1dc62ca2000225852e36.png

 

Buying C4D and paying for 2-years of MSA:

buying_2years.thumb.png.0b36434e5967453988ddfb939af5dfb1.png

Wow..Maya got expensive these days!!! (or i´m getting old, maybe both ;)

So let me get this straight..renting Maya for 3 years would cost me 4.932 after that i have nothing.

If i buy C4D + 1 year MSA now.. i get R18 + R19 for 3.780 then i buy another 1 year MSA (540) and another 1 year MSA (540) then i have R21 (4 Versions of C4D) and i´m at 4.860... plus if i´m no longer interrested in 3D i can sell my C4D Version to get some money back!!!

So in my eyes C4D is cheaper than Maya.. and way cheaper if you sell it afterwards or keep on MSA (45 per Month).

The stepping stone for C4D is the first buy.

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4 minutes ago, nightlight said:

Wow..Maya got expensive these days!!! (or i´m getting old, maybe both ;)

So let me get this straight..renting Maya for 3 years would cost me 4.932 after that i have nothing.

If i buy C4D + 1 year MSA now.. i get R18 + R19 for 3.780 then i buy another 1 year MSA (540) and another 1 year MSA (540) then i have R21 (4 Versions of C4D) and i´m at 4.860... plus if i´m no longer interrested in 3D i can sell my C4D Version to get some money back!!!

So in my eyes C4D is cheaper than Maya.. and way cheaper if you sell it afterwards or keep on MSA (45 per Month).

The stepping stone for C4D is the first buy.

You forget the vast array of plugins that would be required for C$D to become feature equivalent to Maya. There's a lot of bang for buck in Maya and Houdini for that matter.

 

It's very important to remember just how atrophied great swathes of C$D's toolset has become over time (cloth, Xpresso, TP) and have never been improved since they were added.

 

 

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2 hours ago, nightlight said:

 

The stepping stone for C4D is the first buy.

About 10 years ago there was a tremendously kind and generous person at MAXON USA named Rafi Barbos.  She no longer works there. She was responsible for getting me into C4D Studio and what I remember about dealing with her is that she had a heart for the hobbyist and enthusiast, especially relative to the cost of the program on the budgets of those who are not earning a living from the software.  Well...I got an incredible deal on an upgrade to Studio and will be forever thankful.    Very sorry when she left.  

 

Now the MAXON USA office is a great bunch of people to work with but here is my hope:  That MAXON has a long term focus when dealing with new licenses relative to the MSA.  I am sure that Rafi gave me a great deal on my Studio upgrade because she already knew that I have been using the program for a few years now and would continue to use it, therefore give me a price break now on getting into Studio because it is a trade off for future years of higher MSA prices.  Remember, there is nothing better than a recurring annual revenue stream.  Companies love that as it locks in their cash flows to some extent so it is better to drop the prices of the core program if it produces a steady stream of higher MSA revenues in the future.   Yes, I saved a huge chunk of the  upgrade cost for Studio but as I have been in the Studio MSA program for 10 years now, I am sure that they got their money back.

 

So if you have been in the MSA program for a few years now on Prime or Broadcast and thinking about upgrading to Studio, call your MAXON office and make that same argument (especially if you are a hobbyist): "I have been a loyal customer in the MSA program and would like to upgrade to Studio but can't afford it.  Can you help me out on the upgrade cost to Studio - I am sure you will make it back on the higher MSA costs over the years".  

 

If R19 is going to pack all the punch of R17, then now might be a good time to make that argument as MAXON may be prepping for a loss of customers (which I expect they are, otherwise why have that blog on the MSA program).

 

Dave

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Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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On 7/28/2017 at 4:11 AM, Cutman said:

Large corporations are spending millions analysing social media because they know the so-called 'vocal minority' actually represent millions of customers, TV viewing figures have been accurately calculated by small but representative sample sizes in similar ways for years. Forums attract a wide variety of users and it's very likely the small sample is highly representative of a wider customer base.

...

 

Th real reason for these R19 style threads (in ALL software forums) is that there is absolutely no real competition in the 3D landscape. Autodesk's buying up of competing software has allowed the whole sector to get lazy and not compete, imagine if Max and XSI were still independent. Companies can effectively charge what they want (there's no downward pressure on pricing), they can provide as limited updates as they can get away with and to put the icing on the cake they have the ability to force people onto subscriptions or M$As where fear of stopping payment either results in you having no software or having to pay a 'fine' to get back on the wagon.

 

I tend to agree with the above two points.

 

Forum Representation: My experience in the real world (with all kinds of hardware and software) is that the complaints and requests heard in forums are  often exactly the same complaints heard by people who "don't want to be a forum nerd" / spend their time arguining online. Like I said no one really knows the numbers but there's a good probability the mainline complaints over the last few years in these forums, pretty closely mimic (in proportion) the complaints outside them — and the happy people here and their outside equivalent. Which would mean an unacceptably high percentage of users range from "meh" to "I'm pissed that I've waited so long for these things to be resolved." Even 35% would be a bad number for MAXON but we can be reasonably sure it's more than that. How much more, who knows.

 

Competition: this is generally correct in all areas of creative software. Look at the CC suite: Affinity is the first real competition anyone has seen for Adobe in more than a decade. Why? They bought Macromedia and all that was left was one-off competitors for individual apps, most of them seriously flawed (Quark) or less mature (Pixelmator). There are large barriers to entry to compete with mainstream creative apps, especially at the "swiss army knife" or suite level. Autodesk did more or less the same thing. It's not that there's no competition, but there's definitely less, and often not apples to apples... 

On 7/28/2017 at 5:05 AM, Vozzz said:

filled with elements generated by other software is a great indicator of how well cinema4D plays with other software and how much choice you have when creating stuff. 

 

Which is really important to studios and professionals... 

 

also no competition? modo, houdini, clarisse etc.. 

....also we shouldn't confuse C4D compatibility that is built in as a matter of necessity (because C4D itself lacks a proper solution) for compatibility that is built as a supplement to an already good feature. Compatibility is important in 2D and 3D. You need great import/export capabilities, an avoidance of "these features are greyed out when using formats x, y, z" etc. MAXON does pretty well at that part and they continue working on their file exchange capabilities as they should (more CAD formats without expensive translator plugins please — read: SolidWorks).

 

Competition-wise, it's not a good market right now but I actually think it is trending in the right direction in certain respects. Part of the reason MAXON has the habits it does is because until the last 2-3 years, there were no other apps trying to build in legit motion graphics features or otherwise challenge C4D's bread and (olive oil). Now that this is being actively pursued by Maya dev team, and Houdini's dev team, people are starting to shift their workflow in small numbers away from C4D (the numbers always start small — the question is whether they get big or whether MAXON fixes the issues and prevents more people from leaving). [There is actual pressure from competitors on MAXON, though the niches remain.]

 

I see Maya, Houdini and C4D (and now Blender) as the closest things to an "apples to apples group of competitors" whose products can cover much of the 3D workflow on their own, but with different gaps / weaknesses. Maya's weakness is stability, and a modest motion graphics toolset (for now). [edit: almost forgot the dog sh*t licensing scheme - not a small flaw.] It's strength is it has a massive and deep toolset that can cover the bases of modeling, rendering, particles, animation, you name it. Houdini's weakness is its complexity but not much else; it can also do pretty much everything you need it to [and the licensing terms are great especially for indies]. Blender's weakness is its user interface and it's lack of motion graphics tools. C4D's weaknesses we all know well and its strengths are clearly motion graphics and its overall stability and approachable UI. But obviously MAXON can't rest on that. 

 

Modo to me is more of a specialized modeling toolset than a jack of all trades, with smaller add-ons for other parts of the workflow. Sort of like Zbrush is a specialized sculpting toolset. Modo is more or less part of a suite (or what the Foundry intends as a suite) so I don't consider it direct competition for the above items except insofar as people who are heavily focused on modeling.

 

On 7/28/2017 at 5:24 AM, Sreckom said:

Let me go slightly off topic, how much would cost me to to upgrade from R17 to R19? 

 

No one knows for sure because the jump from R16 to R18 was kindly met with an unexpected discount such that you could spend a little less than a $1000 to get the license + MSA to "catch up". It could be ~ $1000 or it could be more like $1500 or $1600.

 

On 7/28/2017 at 11:10 AM, Cerbera said:

Although we should note for comparison and fairness reasons that MAXON only just fixed all the R18 knife tools (nearly a year later), and still haven't made OpenSubDiv work with UV's, meaning that here, on the verges of R19 announcing, that is a feature that has not worked in the entire life cycle of the version. That's something of a first for MAXON...

 

I hope this doesn't happen with ProRender, as we know the first implementation will be lacking some core features. If there was any type of feature that warranted a "between releases" update, it's a ProRender type setup. Because it touches all parts of the application and workflow.

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4 hours ago, Cutman said:

You forget the vast array of plugins that would be required for C$D to become feature equivalent to Maya. There's a lot of bang for buck in Maya and Houdini for that matter.

 

It's very important to remember just how atrophied great swathes of C$D's toolset has become over time (cloth, Xpresso, TP) and have never been improved since they were added.

 

 

Yes, but -depending on your needs- you also need to either pay Arnold fees for batch render in Maya,  or buy a GPU render engine for both Maya and Houdini, because they are pretty slow render engines.

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12 minutes ago, luchifer said:

Yes, but -depending on your needs- you also need to either pay Arnold fees for batch render in Maya,  or buy a GPU render engine for both Maya and Houdini, because they are pretty slow render engines.

In this case, Redshift is the best option. You can buy only 1 license. All plugins are included free with all Redshift licenses, so you can use either or both at no extra charge.

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5 hours ago, Zmotive said:

Competition: this is generally correct in all areas of creative software. Look at the CC suite: Affinity is the first real competition anyone has seen for Adobe in more than a decade. Why? They bought Macromedia and all that was left was one-off competitors for individual apps, most of them seriously flawed (Quark) or less mature (Pixelmator).

 

Not entirely true: PhotoLine's been on the market for nearly as long as Photoshop, and its layer stack does things that neither Photoshop nor Affinity Photo is capable of. True layer instancing, 'smart objects', each layer can be any resolution, colour mode, and bit depth, mostly non-destructive editing, instancing of layer masks, and more. Arguably of the three, PhotoLine blows both Photoshop and Affinity Photo out of the water in regards to its layer stack.

The layer stack actually reminded me a bit of how C4D does things - extremely modular. Also a German developer, btw.

 

I switched to PhotoLine for most of my image editing.

 

5 hours ago, Zmotive said:

I see Maya, Houdini and C4D (and now Blender) as the closest things to an "apples to apples group of competitors" whose products can cover much of the 3D workflow on their own, but with different gaps / weaknesses. Maya's weakness is stability, and a modest motion graphics toolset (for now). [edit: almost forgot the dog sh*t licensing scheme - not a small flaw.] It's strength is it has a massive and deep toolset that can cover the bases of modeling, rendering, particles, animation, you name it. Houdini's weakness is its complexity but not much else; it can also do pretty much everything you need it to [and the licensing terms are great especially for indies].

 

You omitted one: Lightwave. It may not have the industry support anymore it used to have, yet it is still a quite capable 3d generalist application. Newtek, however, suffers from the same ailment as MAXON: almost no communication. Lightwave Next ought to be out sometime this year, and will probably add some interesting new features, and a completely overhauled new render engine.

Whether that will be enough...?

 

5 hours ago, Zmotive said:

Blender's weakness is its user interface and it's lack of motion graphics tools. C4D's weaknesses we all know well and its strengths are clearly motion graphics and its overall stability and approachable UI. But obviously MAXON can't rest on that. 

 

Indeed, MAXON cannot rest on their laurels. They did that with BodyPaint (and other modules), and we all know how that panned out. And even Blender is making solid forays into offering better motion graphics tools with "Animation Nodes". Version 2 just added fall-offs to their Effectors - yes, you read that right: the developer took its cue directly from MoGraph's Effectors! 

 

 

Now, combine this with the upcoming Eevee?

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15 hours ago, Unmastered said:

I'm past fighting this really. Most studios and most companies I know use Maya, so I have to use it despite it's rental scheme. It's the same with Adobe ... I started using Fusion, I bought Affinity, etc. It's cool and all and it's a option for maybe when I'm full freelance with complete projects as deliverables ... but if I want to collaborate, work in-site, etc, I need to use Adobe as long as the companies are using.

I tried Blender several times. It's a great software, but I don't have fun using, so I actually am more prone to pay for a software that I find fun to work with. So with that in mind, Cinema 4D will only become cheaper than Maya after 3-years. That's why I say it's the most expensive right now. Now ... in 10-years I'll have spent more in Maya for sure, but who knows if I'll be alive or even doing 3D in 10-years.

 

Renting Maya for 3-years:

renting_3years.thumb.png.1f9538b05f077438030ff5fa739b4557.png

 

Renting C4D for 3-years on the 6-month contract:

renting_6months.thumb.png.ade96867558b1dc62ca2000225852e36.png

 

Buying C4D and paying for 2-years of MSA:

buying_2years.thumb.png.0b36434e5967453988ddfb939af5dfb1.png

If I am going to take the approach of "don't know if I'm going to be alive in 3 years..." I'll be out to buy the top-of-the line Tesla tomorrow. Again, Maya is a double-downer. Pay more. Own nothing.

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8 hours ago, 3D-Pangel said:

About 10 years ago there was a tremendously kind and generous person at MAXON USA named Rafi Barbos.  She no longer works there. She was responsible for getting me into C4D Studio and what I remember about dealing with her is that she had a heart for the hobbyist and enthusiast, especially relative to the cost of the program on the budgets of those who are not earning a living from the software.  Well...I got an incredible deal on an upgrade to Studio and will be forever thankful.    Very sorry when she left.  

 

Now the MAXON USA office is a great bunch of people to work with but here is my hope:  That MAXON has a long term focus when dealing with new licenses relative to the MSA.  I am sure that Rafi gave me a great deal on my Studio upgrade because she already knew that I have been using the program for a few years now and would continue to use it, therefore give me a price break now on getting into Studio because it is a trade off for future years of higher MSA prices.  Remember, there is nothing better than a recurring annual revenue stream.  Companies love that as it locks in their cash flows to some extent so it is better to drop the prices of the core program if it produces a steady stream of higher MSA revenues in the future.   Yes, I saved a huge chunk of the  upgrade cost for Studio but as I have been in the Studio MSA program for 10 years now, I am sure that they got their money back.

 

So if you have been in the MSA program for a few years now on Prime or Broadcast and thinking about upgrading to Studio, call your MAXON office and make that same argument (especially if you are a hobbyist): "I have been a loyal customer in the MSA program and would like to upgrade to Studio but can't afford it.  Can you help me out on the upgrade cost to Studio - I am sure you will make it back on the higher MSA costs over the years".  

 

If R19 is going to pack all the punch of R17, then now might be a good time to make that argument as MAXON may be prepping for a loss of customers (which I expect they are, otherwise why have that blog on the MSA program).

 

Dave

Man I remember Rafi, she was aces, always willing to help, always pleasant just a really nice person.  

 

Earlier in the year I tried seeing if I could get a better upgrade deal from Broadcast to Studio, they only offered $200.00 off the normal upgrade, while that isn't chump change it really isn't much of a discount for a long time user.  then a few months later a guy here was selling his copy and I got a heck of a deal even throwing in the $200.00 difference in MSA that was $500 cheaper than MAXON's "deal".


I don't have a dirty mind because I use Mental Floss.

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54 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

If I am going to take the approach of "don't know if I'm going to be alive in 3 years..." I'll be out to buy the top-of-the line Tesla tomorrow. Again, Maya is a double-downer. Pay more. Own nothing.

Yeah... I hope the next week we get to live to see the new upgrades.

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11 hours ago, luchifer said:

Yeah... I hope the next week we get to live to see the new upgrades.

Honestly....the fact that MAXON hasn't announced R19 before Siggraph is not a good sign.   Given the costs of a booth at Siggraph, if MAXON was proud of the new features in R19 then they would have announced it by now to create buzz and foot traffic.  Now they could still announce within the next 24 hours, but it doesn't look good.  If the R19 features were really outstanding, then they would not wait to right before the conference.

 

Now there was a post earlier in this thread that R19 was going to be delayed due to problems with the core.   No one paid much attention to it and rightly so because it sounded like fake news.....but, just to cover all the bases in this discussion, that could be another reason for not hearing anything and R19 is going to be a crackerjack release.  You decide.


Sorry...but I simply do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

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